What is Appropriate Before Marriage?
Out of curiosity and for the sake of discussion, what do you all consider to be appropriate contact before engagement or marriage?
Personally, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have no contact whatsoever with each other’s bodies before getting married. It could be a bit traumatic and scary. But I also don’t want to go too far before marriage.
My boyfriend and I have talked about our limits and what we think is okay and not. Still, I’d like to know what others think. Thanks!
[Editor’s Note: As this is a request for advice, we understand if comments run a bit long.]
In our opinion, the act of intercourse is what defines a marriage in the eyes of God. Ceremonies are so people can know you're married. Intercourse is so God can know. In biblical jewish culture, intercourse was completed [as part of] the wedding ceremony. The crowd that gathered would wait outside until the act was completed.
If it's truly a committed marriage and there's no desire to ever break the covenant, holding off till after a ceremony is catering to people's idea of the covenant, not God. If you're ready, celebrate it together as soon as you're ready. If you feel like all steps for people to know need to be completed prior to God knowing, then I'd say anything but the act of intercourse is fine.
My wife and I have discussed this a million times and we can't get past the idea of God being Global, laws being local. You aren't married till it's consumated in His eyes and His eyes are the ones that matter most.
[MH affirms the wedding ceremony, not as a legal requirement, but as a public commitment in the eyes of God and the couple's community, ideally before they become one physically. We include this comment as food for thought and respectful discussion.]
TexasCouple, I agree almost entirely with your perspective on this. However, I'd say what makes a couple married in God's eyes is their true, "for a lifetime" commitment to each other in their hearts. Then at some point after that, they have freedom to consummate the marriage by having intercourse. Marriage ceremonies are mentioned (described) in the Bible, but are not prescribed. They are cultural, not mandated by God. In our case, we waited until after our marriage ceremony to have intercourse, and generally speaking, that approach has some advantages. But each couple needs to think this issue through carefully and make the decision that gives them a clear conscience with each other and before God.
Great question Saving, but I do have a couple of points where I disagree with Texas Couple.
Marriage is a covenant, and sexual intercourse is the ratification of that covenant. It is not the covenant itself. If it were, then fornication/sex before marriage would not be a sin, which it clearly is. In first century (NT times) Jewish culture, the marriage covenant was in place for about a year before consummation. That is why Joseph would have had to file a divorce with Mary when she turned up pregnant.
Personally I'd say kissing, hugging and holding hands. I say this not only for obvious reasons, but also from personal experience. Our wedding night was still special!
I think one of the most beautiful moments that I have had in my ministry as a Pastor, was when I officiated a marriage and when I said "You may now kiss your bride…" I added, "Just before he kisses her I want to tell you that this will be their FIRST KISS!" The people started shouting and whistling, the shofars blew and he kissed her there in front of the alter for 2 minutes and 47 seconds. (We have it on video.) It was an extremely sensual moment. It was as if he was making love to his wife at that moment.
I think we have accepted the world's standards in our pre-marital courtships. When you kiss or touch a girl in any sexual manner and you are NOT YET married, you might be kissing or touching another man's future wife.
What about kissing?…, Is that ok ? I've been dating my girlfriend about a year and we have talked about this, too. My girlfriend is 21 and I'm 19 and we both love God. We already pray about our boundaries and we both agree that kissing and solo masturbation is ok (as long as we are not thinking about ourselves.) I masturbate, too, and I already managed how to do it without thinking about her …
We love to have making out sessions a lot I'm a man, so when we are making out I get a boner and she loves it! She told me that is totally normal and there's nothing to worry about and she reminded me that God wired my body to react this way.
And I'm glad that she didn't feel uncomfortable because I think it's inevitable. I've tried to hold back my erection and I can't. But I don't know if this is right. Just like this Saturday night. We had a Bible study with her brother, and it was beautiful. After that we were alone, and we started to make out really hard. Then she sat on my lap and she started to rub my erection by humping me and I had to stop. One thing leads to another and this could be dangerous. I know she loves Jesus and our relationship is based on Him, but we are human and we have needs!
I think kissing could be great during dating but we have to be careful!
I'm curious too about what MH community thinks.
My wife and I were never left alone. We didn't kiss. We were both virgins and wanted to save everything for our wedding day. We always went on public dates and the first time we had contact was on our wedding day. Set up boundaries and don't set up temptations
In my opinion, whatever you are comfortable with. Set your own boundaries and he should set his. If [either of you cannot abide by the other's boundaries], then move on.
[Edited for clarity]
My wife and I did not see each other naked until our wedding night. No oral sex, nothing like that. We did get carried away when our wedding was getting closer when making out fully clothed. I actually came in my pants a few times without her knowing it from grinding against her. I personally feel that anything beyond kissing and normal making out should be off limits. It is too much of a temptation to go further and the goal is keep ourselves pure for all the fruits to be enjoyed in the marriage bed with all the blessing from God.
I believe that it depends on the length of the dating relationship and engagement. My wife and I dated for 3 years and were engaged for the final 7 months after meeting in our first year of college. Looking back on it, we held ourselves to an almost impossible standard. These are not easy questions in today's age when it is becoming increasingly difficult to marry young. I am morally conservative, but I have modified my views on sexual contact before marriage. Christians need to develop higher levels of maturity and discretion than the rest of the world and this might necessitate certain levels of sexual touching prior to marriage – especially in cases of marrying well into one's twenties. I believe that if a man and woman are entirely committed to each other, it is good to touch and explore each others bodies, particularly during the engagement. The first time that I ran my hands up my wife's panties and brushed my fingers against her pubic hair was a week before our wedding and is the single greatest experience of my life for which I feel no guilt. I think that it would have been good for us to do more exploring prior to our wedding. I was filled with such anxiety and fear by the time the big day came that I was unable to ejaculate for nearly two months. It was a period of major frustration and unspeakable disappointment. I think this was all rooted in years of trying to keep myself pure and then finally crossing the magic threshold. But for me it was impossible and overwhelming. I am a mature and spiritually sincere person, and for the life of me I can't see how it would have been a problem for us to take a gradual approach towards sex. It would have been wonderful to have seen her breasts, to have touched them and sucked on them before our marriage. In the final months of our engagement, it would have been a foretaste of heaven to have massaged her nude body with oil and to feel the warmth of her juices with my fingers and tongue. To have buried my face in her pubic garden would have filled me with nothing but joy, pleasure and confidence. If only I had not been filled with this sense that such liberties would only send us directly to hell. Honestly, it was too much. I wish that she could have stroked my cock, singing to me and holding me gently. The pressure would have been so much less. We would have remained virgins and fully committed to God and each other. We needed mentors in our life to guide us and assure us that it's normal and healthy to touch each other. I feel very strongly about this. If there is not complete commitment to a lifelong union, then there should be no sexual touching. But once there is a serious and mature spiritual commitment, then I believe it's time for some clothing to come off, for real sexual touching to begin and that both would learn how to bring pleasure to one another. I don't expect everyone (or even most) to agree with me. But I feel that this needs to be discussed because we simply do not live in an agricultural society any longer when it was practical to marry young. I also believe that it's rather absurd to place such enormous emphasis on the wedding day when most people require time and gentleness and practice to get comfortable with their sexuality. I realize that people might say, "There is plenty of time to get comfortable after marriage". The problem I have with this view is that people blossom differently and there might be very natural times to begin exploring that end up becoming repressed experiences that actually lead to spiritual and psychological grief. I am all about one man and one woman for life. What I am challenging is the notion of the magic threshold.
You know, Prince of Denmark, we at MH think this is a great subject for its own post. Care to submit it?
Yes, I will. I just need to edit it a bit first.
Very well said.
My wife of 24yrs and I have discussed our early days at length in recent months. We went further than you did, (no exposed genitals, oral sex or intercourse) but only with great shame. Then once we were married the easy flowing sexual passion we had before marriage became stilted and less than what we had before. It took many years… 22 in fact, to pick up the passion we had before we were married.
Whereas before marriage we could spend hours making out, and enjoying each other (again with that post event shame), after marriage sex soon led to orgasm and it was over, mainly at my wife's behest. The time to learn how to keep the passion and enjoyment of slow and sensual making out leading to (or not) sex was during our engagement I believe. A gradual progression from no touching, to all touching.
For us at least jumping from all touching is bad, to all touching is good, didn't work at all. We regret both what we did before marriage, and the 22yrs of less than satisfactory sex/love after marriage… which doesn't make sense.
To make a completely opposing argument to myself, we've also realised in recent months how my wife being physically involved (similar level to my wife and I) with the boyfriend before me lead to her being somewhat bound to him for a great deal longer than she wanted to be (empty/shallow relationship based just on the physical), which lead to issues in our relationship. Additionally our physical relationship led to me being bound to my future wife, when it wasn't healthy to be that way in the early days.
Staggeringly it's only in our mid 40's that we realised some of the teaching's of our elders when we were teens was accurate… getting physically involved with people can lead to problems thinking clearly about what's good for us/them, and breaking up with them when we know it's right.
Of course you're not suggesting we jump into bed with casual boyfriends/girlfriends, that there should be a lifelong commitment first. I agree, but it's a fine line to tread.
Advice:
1) Set personal boundaries
2) Respect each other and these boundaries
3) Make a commitment to God
4) Make a commitment to your marriage
5) Find an accountability partner
Do this BEFORE you get engaged or married!
When things are looking like they are going to lead to engagement or marriage, don’t let the weak moments slip up on you.
Pray daily.
Hope this helps.
Thank your for including my earlier comment. I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading your website and appreciate the fact you are willing to allow differing opinions. I know my opinion on this particular matter would be seen by most as being a fringe opinion. I'm good with that.
I think what we lose sight on, much of the time, is taking where we are in the world geographically and defining the rest of it by the lens through which we see it. We see others traditions, values, etc. in the context of our own. Not every Christian culture adheres to the same ideas and practices of marriage or defines them and legalizes them in the same way. God's truly the only one who can make that determination and ultimately, intercourse is the defining act, whether a country, community or others recognize it. It's the only act that crosses all boundaries.
Cultures consistently change the definition of marriage, who can be married, etc. Why leave it up to men and ceremonies to determine what is vastly more valuable, spiritually.
My wife and I had sex before any ceremony and would never consider breaking that covenant we created. We consider this to be of such importance, that we've made that our anniversary date, not one created cermonially among friends.
Once again, I know this is a fringe opinion, but my honest question is, why? I think there's more grace in this issue than the culture and majority Christian opinion allows. Seems to me that most of the things people place value on, God doesn't.
You know, TexasCouple, we at MH think this is also a great subject for it's own post. And thank you for your recent submission, as well 🙂
I whole-heartedly agree with you that a ceremony is not at all a requirement for a marriage to be deemed legitimate. I also agree that the consummation is a vital part, but I do not believe it is the true beginning of a marriage. As a response to both this comment and your previous one, I would like to respectfully say I believe you missed a third option here.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you appear to have set up a false binary choice between either the ceremony or the consummation being the starting point of a marriage. A couple of times you mentioned the covenant, but with insufficient prominence, from my perspective. I strongly believe that it is the commitment or covenant, not the ceremony or consummation, that defines where the marriage begins.
If I'm not mistaken, in a typical wedding, the officiator presides over the vows (the commitment), and almost immediately after that, says "I pronounce you man and wife." Notice how the proclamation of marriage comes promptly upon the commitment of the man and woman to each other. I realize this is heavily influenced by culture and tradition and not necessarily God's requirements, but hopefully it's a useful illustration.
This doesn't mean that consummation isn't important though, as it obviously is! Hopefully this is a decent example: think of a brand-new house where construction was just completed. It has no furniture or appliances yet. However, it does have walls, a floor and a roof. It doesn't yet fulfill it's intended function, but it's still a house. This is much like a new marriage: the structure of commitment is there, but it hasn't yet been decorated with the beautiful furniture of consummation.
In my mind, consummation of a marriage is much like furnishing that house. It allows a brand new structure to undergo an amazing and beautiful transformation. It's important to see that the act of furnishing doesn't build the house itself. Unless the structure (commitment) is there first, the furnishings will have nothing to protect them. Likewise, without the furnishings, the structure is dull and cannot fulfill all of its intended functions, and hence the importance of consummation.
I hope I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying! I think we mostly agree, but I hope I was able to present a useful new way of looking at this!
After receiving a full measure of grace from Jesus, it seems that grace from fellow believers is limited and hard to come by. The older I get, the more I understand the amount of grace the Lord bestows upon this woeful sinner, so I strive to be more graceful towards other believers who perhaps don’t believe exactly as I do.
@PatientPassion
I agree with your last statement that we seem to agree for the most part.
I'm don't think I'm making a "this or that" binary choice. Not going to lie to you, my wife and I did have sex relatively early in our relationship and I can't make the statement that we were committed to a life together at that time. But, if we were doing this again, I would make sure that we had that commitment/covenant prior, whether a ceremony was involved or not.
I hadn't looked at it from your point of view and did put all the eggs in the basket of consumation. I think you're correct in that commitment/covenant is the most important thing. I think consumation is what solidifies the commitment in the eyes of God. I just find the ceremony to be an arbitrary activity based upon cultural norms.
In reading some of the other comments, I agree with King David that our purity culture has a real problem. If we can agree that intercourse is the specific act of consumation outlined in the Bible, why restrain ourselves from anything but. In my opinion, enjoying the physical pleasure of an orgasm, independent or together, prior to marraige, doesn't defile the marriage bed.
Now, I understand that most people would say to avoid that kind of behavior, making a slippery slope argument. But I think refraining, limits your sexual development and leads to much sexual discord going into a marriage day one.
Thanks for your response TexasCouple!
What I meant by the "false binary choice" phrase was that you seemed to be saying that the consummation and the ceremony were the only two places a marriage could begin. Perhaps it wasn't exactly the right phrase to use, but I simply meant to point out there was a third event you hadn't listed that I thought was the important one.
And once again, I entirely agree that the ceremony isunnecessary. For young couples with little funding or even if just by choice, I see nothing at all wrong with a simple courthouse wedding. They can say their vows, get the job done with no fluff and start living together as husband and wife.
Also, I agree that our purity culture sometimes goes too far, but it depends heavily on how we define it. Does it go too far if it prohibits kissing before marriage? Almost certainly, yes. But is it right to allow anything short of intercourse, including oral sex? No, I believe that's an appropriate prohibition, because I'm not at all convinced that intercourse is the one act that defines sex. Many sex acts short of intercourse–oral and manual stimulation, even mutual masturbation–are extremely intimate acts that seem like they should be reserved for marriage.
Obviously I can't pretend to know exactly how God sees it, but that's my interpretation of the letter and spirit of what's written in the Bible. The big problem lies in defining exactly what constitutes sex and what doesn't. Without having a direct line to God, it's probably impossible, which is one reason why I tend to lean toward the safe and conservative side on this issue.
As for limitations of sexual development, I think there are many safe solutions. Obviously complete restraint from even talking about anything remotely sexual is harmful. However, there is still a big difference between healthy sexual development as an unmarried couple and potential abuse of sexuality. For example, I believe it's very beneficial for dating and engaged couples to have thorough discussions about their expectations for sex, and how they see it fitting into their future married life. I believe there is much that can be researched and discussed in preparation for marriage, but that acting out those things should wait. In summary, I believe there are ways to eliminate any potential "sexual discord" without engaging in any sexual activity at all. That doesn't mean sexuality cannot be expressed through small teases like kissing and caressing, but it does mean that the bigger things should wait until the bigger commitment of marriage is made.
If it makes any difference to those commenting, my boyfriend and I have known each other for almost seven years and have been dating for nine months, we’re both in our early 20’s and we have been talking about our future together for the past few months or so, engagement is not far off, and as I mentioned earlier, we have discussed and are comfortable with the boundaries we have set. We’re both virgins and Christians, and we do have a strict rule about not having sex of any kind before marriage.
I applaud you. The Bible teaches that man's heart is deceitfull above all else. I think many young people (in Churches) will be married many times if the advice of some writers were to be followed. As a young man there were many girls that I would have liked to have sex with BUT my upbringing prevented me from doing what my hormones were begging for.
Might I add that different people have different convictions about this, like some might feel ok with kissing, some might not, and that's ok, just as long as your not doing sexual things before marriage
I LOVE the diversity of opinion on this topic, which kind of proves that I don’t (none of us have) the ONE right answer. But I think folks can listen to these various words of wisdom and then make an educated guess.
1. I have never met a sexually pure adult. Never. Just because you’ve never kissed someone does not make you sexually pure. The language about purity in the church is a farce. The Bible / The Gospel teaches this… we are all impure – in thoughts, motives, words, actions… and our purity ONLY comes from Jesus… not from keeping boundaries.
2. Having an orgasm isn’t sex and isn’t a magic “sex threshold.” If making out leads to an orgasm (either party), it doesn’t mean you had sex. It’s sexual, yes. But not sex. The act of intercourse is sacred to me personally, but otherwise I think a physical relationship can be very good and healthy.
3. Rule of thumb. One's physical relationship should never outpace the spiritual relationship. So if someone told me they were going to 2nd base on a 2nd date, I would consider that unwise. But if someone is going to 2nd base after they are engaged, I have 0% problem with that.
4. Lastly, if a physical relationship tempts you to go all the way to intercourse, then set your boundaries very conservatively. If you feel like you can enjoy a healthy physical relationship for what it is, and can avoid giving in to the temptation of intercourse, then the boundaries can be more liberal. My future wife and I LOVED making out, and I creamed my pants dozens of times. And we remained virgins until our wedding night.
I think PacMan's fairly close with those general guidelines. However, I do have a couple of thoughts.
In response to point 1, while I agree that no one is completely sexually pure, and while I strongly agree that our purity comes only from Jesus, that certainly does not relieve us of the responsibility to maintain proper boundaries to the absolute best of our abilities.
Point 3 is solid, and I would simply like to build on it. My pastor recently explained the issue this way: the greater the commitment, the greater the acceptable level of intimacy. As the commitment increases (not just the depth of the relationship), so does the capacity for proper intimacy. As the highest act of intimacy, intercourse is reserved for the highest act of commitment: marriage.
As ClimaXX's story illustrated, I think it's a beautiful thing if a couple is able to save their first kiss for their wedding day. That story made me consider striving to do it myself in my future relationship! On the flip side though, I don't see anything wrong with kissing, or even making out as the relationship progresses.
Obviously I cannot pretend to dictate God's law, and it's up to every Christian to genuinely and honestly interpret the words of the Bible to determine how they sincerely believe God is directing them to live. The line can be difficult to draw, as the Bible is very sparse in it's listing of sex acts beyond intercourse. However, with that said, here is where I draw the line:
From my point of view, any intentional sexual stimulation, even with all clothes on, is off limits before the vows of commitment are said. This means no intentional touching of primary erogenous zones, such as genitals and breasts. As I noted earlier, intimacy does grow with commitment, so I would say that secondary sexual features like the buttocks are up for grabs (pun intended) around the time of engagement. Making out around this time is probably okay too, and I don't draw a hard line against it before engagement, but it's right on the edge of where I believe it's appropriate to go. Intercourse, oral, fingering, hand-jobs and the like are all off limits until the vows of marriage are said. I don't personally have a guideline on kissing, but I will say that I wouldn't feel comfortable kissing a girl very early on in a relationship. Granted, I tend to be very cautious and conservative, but it seems right to me to leave that sign of love until a time when that love has a steady track record.
I understand sexual arousal is sometimes a side effect of kissing or non-sexual contact, and the arousal itself is probably okay, but a warning sign that you're near the boundary. I know sexual arousal can be extraordinarily difficult, or even impossible to control for certain people, so it's not a solid boundary in my mind. However, intentional sexual stimulation of a significant other is across the line. There's a line that's been said before, and I'll repeat it in my own words: Be careful what you do with your significant other, because until you're married, there's a chance they are someone else's future husband or wife.
I don't comment very often on this this site but want to mention that I find it very inspirational. This subject though is something I have strong feeling about. First off, I think that our Christian evangelical teachings have gone way overboard on the purity culture. I have read the bible cover to cover and I just don't see it. I don't know what the basis is but it is not biblical, in my view anyways. Also as one commentator mentioned, when you are in your twenties and date for years because you are still in school, you hold yourself to an almost impossible standard. As human beings, our bodies reach sexual maturity by the late teens. In the middle ages when people were married at 17 years old, had their family by 25 and were dead at 40., this was not an issue. But, in our present time when people get married well into their twenties, the situation is very different. I believe that the purity cultures puts contraints on people that are unrealistic and quite frankly, not required by God.
To bounce off of the ideas of cultural definitions and commitment vs. ceremony: I find it significant that
in the Jewish culture of Jesus' day at least, during the betrothal period (which usually lasted a year and *after* which the cermony – including consummation – took place,) the man and woman were already considered husband and wife. I believe it holds true for earlier times as well. That, Biblically speaking, was the beginning of the marriage, the commitment. Not something we see in most cultures today, is it?
I have made a career of working with teens and young adults as a pastor, and have done many marriage ceremonies over the years, which includes doing 8-10 weeks of premarital counseling with couples as well as counseling after the marriage.
i see the question of "what is appropriate" as being the wrong question to ask. It's kind of like asking "how close can I get to the line without going over it." A better question to ask, I believe, is "what can I do now to make my sex life and my marriage the best it can be?"
Marriage is all about laying aside ourselves and loving another, and in so doing, we become an example of how Christ loves His church. Therefore, real love and commitment will do nothing which may cause some kind of fracture or schism in the relationship. This is especially true in regard to sexuality. Sex is a loaded minefield in many people's lives, full of areas that can easily "go off" in someone's mind, causing everything from guilt and shame to outright revulsion if not approached carefully and dealt with sincerely and in loving patience. And in a dating relationship, even a committed one, great care needs to be taken to act in ways that do not set off those land mines–but instead the minefield needs to be carefully explored and mapped (which sometimes needs a good counselor to assist with), so that after marriage the greatest chance of successful and long-term intimacy can result.
What that means is that individuals looking to marry need to take what the Bible says seriously and look at their sex life as a pleasing act of worship to God, rather than the way the world would seek to portray it. So, the question becomes, how can our sex life, both before and after marriage most closely reflect the will, character, and love of God?
A lot of times, if the couple just asks the right questions, the answer becomes clearer!
Marriagebedrocks: I really like the way you framed this. I agree that "taking what the Bible says seriously" is the key. That might sound like a simple platitude to some. Yet, by taking the Bible seriously and letting it rightfully have authority over us – that will immediately put a protective hedge around us that we vitally need. I think Scripture gives us great freedom in the marriage bed – but not freedom from God's authority.
One more quick comment about what makes a legitimate marriage: Malachi 2:14 speaks to a husband and wife as "companions by covenant". Proverbs 2:17 speaks of an adulterer as someone "who has forgotten the covenant with God". Taking the Bible seriously means seeing that marriage at its core is a covenant.
The emphasis is on the covenant with God – but not to the total disregard to it being a covenant known by those around us. So, the cultural aspect of ceremony – whether civil or religious – is not unimportant. True, the central aspect is a covenant with God – but it has ramifications in our dealings with other people. When 2 people make a covenant in marriage – not only does God know (of course) – but it is vital for others around us to know. Those 2 people are now off the market. Their covenant bond – when recognized by others – dictates a lot about how people now interact. They are not to be pursued for marriage. Whatever the cultural line of demarcation, it plays an important role. This protects us from the notion of 2 people making up their own rules and saying years later, "we've pretty much been married in our eyes". No! That is not the same as 2 people being in a covenant. People in a covenant make it known that they are one.
Wow, so happy to see all the different comments and opinions on this topic! I know everyone has differing opinions based on how they grew up, their denomination, their generation, their personal convictions, experiences, etc. And I’m glad we have a well grounded group of answers on this. I know for someone like me, this is a very new type of relationship for me. This is my first serious boyfriend (I had a few in high school over eight years ago but I didn’t really care about them) and I’m only his second girlfriend he’s ever had so we’re both still trying navigate this. Right now we’re in this stage of expressing our sexual desires verbally and communicating about what kinds of things we look forward to, what we think we’d like and not like because we feel that kind of thing should be defined or at least addressed before making a big commitment. That being said, the closer we do get to making a bigger commitment, the harder it is to stick to our guns on this. I have read everyone’s comments and really appreciate what everyone has to say. Thanks everyone!
When my wife and I met she had been married for twenty five years and a widow for past twelve. I had been in a dead marriage for twenty nine years and divorce for three. We fell deeply in love and had to decide the lines and how to keep them. We call it "The Time of Beautiful Agony." Adults in love express that love sexually and in sexual touch. We agreed on no intercourse and no orgasms. We wanted to save that for our wedding night, no matter how hard it would be, and it was harder than H***. She is short, under five ft with very large breasts. There was so little of her that I could touch and not feel like we crossed a line! We came to this, that we would keep our determination to keep from sex and orgasms, and let the rest be governed by our passionate love for Jesus. My then fiancee' was then fifty seven and I was fifty five, but after so many years of no sex at all we were desperate for each other. What we did or didn't do is our sacred place, but after being a believer for fourty-seven years my understanding of rules and grace has changed. God who made us and our sexual desires and responses made them powerful and absolutely needed. He is our Father who "pities us as a father pities his children;" who "knows our frame and remembers we are but dust." He understands the power of sexuality, the need for it, and what is truly in our hearts. The rule, if you can call it that, that we came to is this – do all out of love, avoid what God strictly forbids because he made us and knows how we best operate, and his heart is for us. Where we went with that is for us. Some here have said no contact. I think that is unhealthy and unreasonable, and really unnatural. But those are only my views. I can say this, we entered marriage with no guilt or regrets. That is the best gift we could give each other on our wedding night. We say it often, that it was harder than we can tell you, with lots of unsatisfied erections and wet panties, but we are glad we kept on this side of that line. Regulate all you do by your love for Jesus and for each other, and remember that coming to your wedding night without guilt that you violated what you think is right and wrong, is the best gift you can give each other and yourselves for life.
I made a comment earlier but that was more addressed at another comment, and not your actual question.
Again – GREAT question. I think every dating or engaged christian couple has to deal with some form of that question; is THIS ok? Is THAT ok? How far is too far? And the "this's" and "that's" can make a very long laundry list of specifics.
For one thing, I would say that "Anything but intercourse is ok" is wrong minded. But I am going to nuance my answer probably a bit more than some.
James Dobson came up with a 12 step program describing the progression of physical intimacy. You can do a web search and easily find them. The first 8 are not controversial at all but I would like to comment on # 9-12:
(9) Hand to Body,
(10) Mouth to Breast,
(11) Touching Below the Waist
(12) Intercourse.
Dobson says all of that is reserved for after the "I DOs." I am not sure I agree with that. Number 12 is certainly for after the wedding, but I would say there was more of a moving boundary line for 9 – 11, depending on how close to marriage you are. I would certainly not do any of them before getting engaged, and if it is going to be a long engagement, not until the last several months of the engagement.
Anyway, SavingAllMyLove, how has it been going? Still together? Engaged yet?
The problem with any of that (as you already know) is that once you cross a certain point, it is nearly impossible to go back, both in terms of any particular time together and on the relationship as a whole. If you slip up and go to number 11 or 12 on a date, it is almost guaranteed you will go there again. And again. And again.
Masturbating before your dates (or even slipping off to the restroom to do that DURING a date) may help keep the hormones down to a dull roar rather than an overwhelming blast. And if he gets too aggressive, tell him to go do that.
I hope that all is helpful.