Questions About Masturbation, Erotica, and Images
I’m 26 years old, and I’ve always had a very negative view of sex and masturbation due to the fundamental upbringing.
Lately, I’ve been exploring the idea of what is ok for a Christian to do, such as masturbation. This site is so interesting to me because of its concept. If I understand right, it’s where people write stories that are arousing in nature for others to be aroused by, right? And within the context of Christian sexual ethics? I’m not used to being somewhere where stuff like masturbation is openly talked about.
I’m still figuring out where video fits into all of it. I mean obviously I enjoy it, but I don’t know if it’s ok. I’ve seen different opinions on here about it. I don’t just want to watch porn; I’ve done that before, but it’s not really what I’m looking for. In all honesty, I wish I could just find a video of an ordinary Christian married couple having sex, but that’s obviously not really something easy to find. This is embarrassing, but the video on the home page of Marriage heat advertising “Ignite”? Seeing that was a HUGE turn on because they were loving and kind, and of course, she was beautiful. It gave me a raging hard-on, and I had to take a few minutes to catch my breath to write this up because it was so arousing.
I have the fantasy—because I don’t know if it would be sinful or not, and I don’t know if I should even think about it—of just finding other single people (of both sexes) online to talk to about this type of stuff. Similar to this website, I guess but with other single people? Yet I wonder if that would not be crossing a line into sin. But where does sin start? If I masturbate alone to a story, is that sin? What if I was to look at a photo of a pretty woman naked? What if I watched a married couple have sex? What if I talked to a single woman who had posted a nude photo on a website? At what point is it crossing into sin? I don’t know. I want to enjoy my sexuality but also don’t want to sin.
Oh, goodness! Quite a lot to unpack there! But great questions! I'll try to address at least some of them myself.
First of all, welcome to the family! We're all very glad you're here. You have already taken the right step by seeking and finding a community that is, most importantly, dedicated to Him and His Son. But secondly, dedicated to incredibly hot sex within a loving and dedicated marriage.
Regarding watching "porn," I will first just tell you that there is absolutely no reason to guilt trip yourself from watching it. Regardless of whether or not you believe there to be a meaningful and defining difference between 'porn' and other forms of 'Visual Erotica,' whether it would be in regards to the type of sexual activity in of itself, graphic nature, or simply the filming quality.
Again, that term "porn" is such a loosely defined and vague term. At least from my viewpoint, it is. Maybe you agree, or at least understand what I mean.
But since I have not much wiggle room, and I am certainly unable to go off of the assumption that you too believe that there are defining differences between "porn" and other forms of 'erotic visual art' or 'visual-audio-erotica,' and that of which we also just so happen to agree upon…
I will happily and honestly tell you, and this may or may not be a bit of a shock… I do not believe it is (inherently) a sin to watch, as well as enjoy, porn. I believe I am completely sincere in my belief for that. Now, granted, I do surely believe that watching "porn" can be harmful, and lead to sinning. But I also do not completely rule out it's (potential) use and benefits, solely for that reason. Most things are potentially harmful. I think the question is… Is 'utilizing' it harmful to you? Or your spouse?
I think the question to be asked is… Is watching/utilizing "porn" -and again, we're using that term really loosely here- most beneficial to you and your spouse?
The answer to that question, at least to me, is largely subjective and dependent to one's circumstances. For example, whether the person watching "porn" is single or married. Or, what might be the crux of the question, "Is the married person lusting for another, when watching porn?" Thus, commiting adultery.
Obviously, this is not a question that I can answer for someone else.
But in the interest of full disclosure and sincerity… I will tell you that both my husband and I, have and do (occasionally) watch "porn." Though, we define it as "audio-visual-erotica," and don't think it should necessarily be labeled "porn." We have watched erotic sexcapades which unmarried couplings, group sex, threesomes, and girl-on-girl. Yes, all of which I find highly 'motivating,' and very erotic. Though, it's not how sex was most intended to be enjoyed.
I do believe, though… Those sexual adventures could and probably would be more safely and beneficially utilized, solely in written erotic fantasy, that in which you then share and enjoy with your spouse. As opposed to watching them being actually acted out, and thus being sinful. In addition to the *potential* dangers, like addiction, etc.
I would just like to say in closing, that I personally would never judge another person or couple, nor what they use to turn up the heat in the bedroom. Whatever creates hot sexual friction between a couple and brings them closer, is really irrelevant, and I think should be exempt from any judgement by others.
The end is the means, and that is smokin' hot sex between a married man and woman! Amen!
Lila
I really appreciate your reply! And Its nice to know its not automatically going to get me vilified for considering the use of erotica/porn.
So what are your opinions on when the use of audio-visual-erotica would be considered ok (in your view)?
I posted a similar question on the songs of believers site and got much more of a push back against the idea of visual erotica, but I think its good to hear both sides of the story.
Guilt and fear are the mind killers. I believe guilt has done many times the damage to people’s lives than it has scared them from doing “wrong”.
Well here’s the good news. Masturbation is not a sin. You can enjoy your own body to your heart’s delight. The issue with many singles is that we have been taught a flawed definition of lust. Lust is “desire with intent to take that which is not yours.” This applies to many areas, including sexuality. For instance, if I see a peach pie and my mouth waters, have I committed gluttony in my heart? Is it okay to imagine how wonderful it would taste to eat a piece of peach pie? Sure! But lust and sin kick in when I start planning on stealing that pie, or eating the entire thing.
When you see pictures of nudity, do you intend to go and find that person and have sexual with them? Doubtful. What you are doing is looking at an image that produces an expected physiological response in your body so that you can enjoy your body’s built in pleasure centers. Nothing wrong with that.
So enjoy your body and be thankful that others are willing to make such things to aid in your sexual fulfillment before you are in a covenant marriage. Even offer a sacrifice of living seed as an act of worship to the God of Life!
Hope that helps!
Noah
I just want to congratulate you on a short, concise and well-stated point of yours. Your analogy is right on point. My only unclear issue remains the difference between desire, lust and to covet. The Bible translations often use lust where the actual Greek word meant covet. In my humble opinion, the difference between the words is degree. Your definition of lust is my definition for coveting, lust being a lower level. Hence the mistaken “lust in one's heart being adultery” which should read “covet in one's heart”. But your main point remains. Your analogy is exceptional.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from discussing these topics on MH it’s that (a) there is no one-size-fits-all answer for everyone, (b) where the Bible isn’t explicitly clear, we need to rely on the Spirit’s guiding [which might be a different spot for each person], and (c) there’s a lot of wisdom already shared and discussed. In fact, I highly recommend Re-reading the longer threads from NOV.7 and OCT.17.
I was in a very similar place about two or three years ago. I too wanted to serve God and refrain from sin, but I was tired of warring against myself and the extrabiblical tradition of most church teaching (or silence) on sex. The best bit of advice I found was know your limit and play within it. You will find that we offer a plurality of answers because we each have come down on different limits that define the boundaries of our respective consciences. I had to find my own, and I think you will have to find yours.
It doesn't sit well with me to watch another couple perform sexual acts sacred to their marriage; I just don't feel right witnessing what is sacred and blessed just between them. I also set my limit at full frontal nudity, wanting to keep that special for later, but I enjoy viewing images and videos that push right up to that limit. It took me years to settle into these boundaries based on my own conscience, and I play within them, but I can see how others might see them as a bit arbitrary and come down on different boundaries. Continue seeking the Lord, I think you are in a good place.
WakaWaka123, here is a very long answer to your very reasonable questions. I hope you find it helpful… It represents an article I wrote to help those struggling with the questions you are struggling with…
Approving Pornography?
When thinking about the rightness or wrongness of enjoying the gentler forms of pornography the question comes up: “How can you allow this when the Scriptures not only forbid actual sin but also forbids approving of others who do sin?”
Here are the Scriptures that are referred to:
Romans 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
(In our marriage we never give approval to people who break the law, abuse others, fornicate, commit adultery, perform child sex, degrade others, etc. But we do often enjoy the sex some of them portray.)
2Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(We don’t take pleasure in any form of unrighteousness, but we do not believe that a couple enjoying sex and videoing that sex and sharing it with others is necessarily unrighteous. In some cases it is sharing unrighteousness and those forms we choose to refrain from.)
The question needs to be asked and answered: “Do these Scriptures indicate that looking at pornography approves what is being portrayed in pornography and that those who look at it are taking pleasure in the unrighteousness that is portrayed in pornography?”
If prostitutes, sex traffickers, those who despise God, those who are immoral people, those who are engaging in fornication and adultery, and those who are living immoral lives are often the actors in pornography how can Christians allow themselves to enjoy the practices of those who are living immoral lives?
I submit that this is a straw man argument. What is a straw man argument? It is creating the appearance of a man, dressing it in a man’s clothing, and calling it a true man when in fact the clothing is nothing more than a covering of useless straw. It’s not a real man. So also, these arguments “sound” reasonable but they aren’t. Why aren’t they, because I, and most other Christians do not approve of prostitution, fornication, and adultery. And, most Christians watch TV programs and shows which have as actors those who have side jobs in prostitution, or who portray fornication and adultery and other forms of immorality in their programs and shows and we all enjoy both the shows and the acting involved in the shows yet we completely disagree with the things they either portray or do when they are off set. We disagree with them implying that fornication is “ok” but we are able to sort that out without feeling the necessity of turning off our computers. They also portray, stealing, murder, lying, cheating, etc., and we don’t approve of those behaviors either, yet we enjoy the overall program. Why don’t those who reject pornography (because it portrays fornicating or committing adultery) also reject programs that make all the above behaviors appear as either acceptable or worthy forms of entertainment?
So then, the bigger question to be asked is: If a person rejects all these things then how can they take pleasure in the things they do? Because what if the same actors in pornography perform acts that are considered to be good, I.e. giving to the poor, telling the truth, loving their spouses and children, being kind to people they meet, etc., are we to deny the reality of the good they do? Of course not. And if they are performing oral sex, vaginal sex, and fondling one another are we to say those acts are sinful in and of themselves? Most Christian couples perform the same acts, and if they enjoy seeing others do the same things they do is this necessarily sinful? I would answer no, unless you can provide either Scripture or Scriptural logic for saying why it would be.
The TV shows we watch often portray things as Christians we would never do. We reject fornication and adultery yet many if not most shows portray these things as “ok” and we don’t think they are ok, but we are both stimulated by what they do and we enjoy them as actors as well as enjoy the overall message of the show.
Therefore, those who reject pornography because the actors are portraying fornication and adultery, are missing the point and failing to see their own hypocrisy, in that they watch TV shows that portray the same things with simply less of a graphic nature to them. In reality, I believe what they are really objecting to is the intensity of the erotic depiction, the nudity, and the showing of couples actually engaging in sexual intercourse, more than that those doing it are fornicating or committing adultery. So, the real question at issue is “Is it ok for Christians to view other people having sex with one another?” The answer to this question is far harder to sort out than the original question we began with. My short answer would be “Yes, it is ok, because there is nothing that is inherently wrong with sex, or even watching others enjoying sex.” Imagine being in a hotel that is “U” shaped, with a small courtyard between the two legs of the “U”. It is entirely likely that while looking out your hotel window at the windows across the courtyard you could see a couple engaging in sex. Is there anything in the Bible that would tell you that if you continued to watch them have sex that you were sinning, either against God or the couple having sex? If such biblical teaching exists I wouldn’t know what book, chapter, or verse to turn to for proof of its sinfulness. And, if being turned on by watching another couple enjoying sex is sinful I also wouldn’t know what verse to turn to for proof that it is. The King David story is not an example of wrongful seeing, because it clearly indicates the wrong was stealing Bathsheba and murdering Uriah.
So, is the graphic nature what is at fault? In other words, is it not sinful to be sexually stimulated by someone on a TV show who is sexually appealing and engaged in fornication or adultery, or even just wearing sexually suggestive clothing or saying suggestive things or doing suggestive things that are a turn on, but it is sinful to be stimulated by a more graphic expression as is seen in pornography? If so, why and on what basis. If oral sex, vaginal sex, and fondling are not sinful in an of themselves in minimal graphic expression, on what basis would you say they are sinful when the breasts, nipples, penises, and vaginas are actually shown? I know this is a hard question to answer but answering it is important in understanding the thinking behind rejecting pornography.
On what basis would you say that seeing someone else’s genitals is wrong? If you were a doctor it wouldn’t be wrong for you, or a nurse, or a nurse’s aid, or an ambulance driver, or if you were suddenly called to your neighbor’s home to help a woman give birth because her pain was too great or the birth too immanent to wait for an ambulance, or if you came upon an individual who had been in an accident and their clothing was ripped off, or an individual who had just been raped, etc..
Is the problem with seeing genitals in pornography based on it being presented in a way that is designed to be sexually stimulating? But if that is so it begs two questions: 1) Doesn’t the TV you allow often present sexually stimulating scenarios and conversations? 2) Why are some sexual stimulating scenarios “sinful” and others are not? Isn’t this more arbitrary of a definition than a real biblical definition? Are penises, vaginas, and breasts clearly sinful to be seen in a sexually stimulating setting? Where would you derive that understanding from in Scripture?
I would certainly agree that if someone was in your presence and wanted to reveal their genitals to you for the purpose of stimulating you towards fornication then of course viewing them in that setting would be sinful, but pornography doesn’t do this, any more than watching semi clothed actors in the TV shows you enjoy.
If seeing something that is sexually stimulating is really the issue, then admitting that whether you are watching it on TV, seeing someone sexily dressed in the day to day situations of life, or a sexy bathing suit on the beach, being stimulated is…being stimulated. So, where do we determine from Scripture that being sexually stimulated by someone other than your wife or husband is sinful? Answer…it doesn’t exist. In fact, I would submit that being made in the image of God makes you capable of being stimulated by a wide spectrum of influences other than just pornography. Being sexually stimulated is normal and part and parcel with being human. Blame God if you like, but you would be on very shaky ground. He made us to be sexually stimulated by sexually stimulating things. It can’t be wrong, bad, or immoral to be sexually stimulated. And, if you were to answer “Well, it wouldn’t be sinful to be sexually stimulated if you just ‘happened’ upon some sexy event, but it would be sinful if you sought out something to stimulate you.” So, what you are saying is that there is something inherently sinful about being sexually stimulated by someone other than your spouse? I submit that such an idea runs completely counter to the way God made us. If I can be easily stimulated by seeing a woman who is sexually appealing how could that even possibly be a sinful response on my part? It couldn’t be…it simply could not be! After all, isn’t being sexually stimulated by the appearance of the one you are considering marrying a normal part of the choice of one’s life partner?
So, if being sexually stimulated is what we are really at odds with are we so certain that that is the culprit, or is the problem that some people become sexually stimulated and lose their capacity to avoid escalating it towards fornication or adultery? I submit to you that it is the later. And, if an individual had so low of an impulse and moral control that seeing a semi clad person or a person portraying something sexually stimulating would “cause” them to act out and seek someone to fornicate with, then “YES” staying away from pornography, or anything sexually stimulating, would be a very important decision, but by the same logic staying away from TV would be just as wise for that person. But, for the vast majority of people, being sexually stimulated by someone means nothing more than…being sexually stimulated, which no where in Scripture is being sexually stimulated forbidden to the believer…whereas fornication and adultery clearly are forbidden.
Therefore, when logic, analysis, and honesty are employed it seems very apparent to me that Christians have most often been unwilling to follow the logic where it leads, and interpret Scripture in all of life’s contexts rather than in a reactive emotional way, and therefore have drawn false, condemning, and negative attitudes towards things erotic. Eroticism is not biblically defined as sinful…actual acts of sex outside of marriage is always sinful.
If Jesus’ words of warning about looking lustfully at a person means that every time a person is sexually stimulated by someone they see in the course of life they have in effect committed adultery, or were thereby automatically planning on seducing that person because they were turned on by them, then no one has escaped such sinfulness. But, if His words are taken in the broader context of logic and scripture, we can only conclude that His concern was that we not allow something sexually stimulating to create a purposeful approach within us to obtain the object of that sexual stimulation for fornicative or adulterous purposes.
Someone will say, then how do you account for all the pain it causes in marriages, often resulting in divorce? The same thing could be said of many divorce contributing factors. Women who gain excessive weight can cause men to become so upset they divorce their wives or commit adultery. Husbands who spend too much time at the office can cause stress on a marriage. Or neutral things like a wife wants to drink a glass of wine but the husband thinks it’s sinful to do so. The husband wants to go out dancing with his wife but his wife thinks that’s sinful. The wife who buys a new pair of shoes when her husband thinks she has enough. I could go on and on. People find all kinds of excuses to divorce one another. Religious people are not immune to using false issues as justification for divorce. For a woman to divorce her husband or a husband to divorce his wife because either of them enjoy erotic images is completely ludicrous and lacks any sort of biblical support.
One woman has seen her father’s Playboy magazines from the time she was 10 years old and come to a place where seeing them is no big deal. Another woman has grown up in a home where the parents were so religiously strict that they weren’t even allowed to watch TV because of the sexy commercials and programs they show. People are influenced by legalistic preachers, parents, teachers, friends, and relatives. All kinds of non-biblical things influence people’s idea of what is good and bad, and they can easily lay those on top of their understanding of God or a few scriptures and draw conclusions about things that aren’t necessary biblically accurate or worthy of God. I believe this is largely explains the vast negativity of Christians towards pornography. They have been falsely conditioned, given false logic, been overwhelmed with legalistic shame and condemnation, have been led to believe that much about sex is sinful and unworthy of Christians, all to the degree that they simply can’t come to scripture and let it speak for itself and not speak where it doesn’t speak. They come with their guns preloaded to read into it things that aren’t there. Enjoying nipples, vaginas, and butts are not inherently evil. They just aren’t. Those who say seeing them anywhere except on their spouses is sinful just plain don’t have scripture or divine logic to back up their beliefs. It might sound reasonable to them, but they don’t realize their reason has been largely conditioned by unscriptural influences.
Most people, who view pornography for the first time will experience a significant degree of shock. Suddenly seeing naked genitals is not something most people are used to seeing and the sudden shock can easily give a false sense of shame. Genitals are not shameful. When the Bible talks about people having their “shame” exposed it is referring to their nakedness being exposed without their permission. It was a form of rape and considered to be a very serious personal violation. But genitals are not sinful, nor is seeing someone else’s genitals sinful. Don’t interpret the shock factor as sinful, unless you are also prepared to call a Medical Examiner or the Ambulance Driver sinful who see mutilated bodies for the first time and are shocked. After seeing a few mutilated bodies the shock is over and life goes on for them. Seeing things we aren’t used to seeing is almost always initially shocking. But, because Christians tend to be so fear and legalistic oriented they interpret the shock as evidence of seeing something they are sinful for seeing. Headline… “Shock doesn’t equal sin!” This should be obvious but because most Christians have a hard time thinking logically or even biblically when facing things they are uncertain about, their knee jerk response is “Oh my gosh…I just sinned terribly in seeing that. I will never be able to ‘unsee’ that.” They conclude that because they can’t “unsee” something that shocked them that they must have sinned in seeing it…they are now defiled…they have lost their spiritual innocense…they will never be pure and clean again! Such thinking is immature and ridiculous but then many Christians are immature and ridiculous when it comes to many things. Why? Because they are afraid to think, look at things unemotionally, and are inclined to see life through a wrong fear of God and a legalistic filter.
Some people are so overwhelmed with anxiety over these issues that they are willing to and feel compelled to divorce their spouse if they catch them watching porn. Other couples watch it together, never include other people in their personal sexuality, and thoroughly enjoy porn. Their prayer lives are good, they read their bibles, they love Jesus, they witness to others of Christ and His Kingdom, and their lives are full of worship and praise for God. So, you can’t tell me that just because a person privately enjoys some porn with their spouse that it will ruin their marriages or their relationship with God. Other factors are causing the ruination…not porn.
Christians are truly weird people often. They believe all kinds of weird things:
1) We can’t enjoy rock and roll music
2) We can’t watch TV
3) We can watch TV but it can only be the National Geographic documentaries and Little House on the Prairie type shows
4) We can watch shows that show light fondling and some “under the covers” screwing but we can’t see naked breasts or butts
5) We can see a few boobs or butts, but we can’t see penises or vaginas
6) We can’t drink a glass of wine
7) We can drink a small glass of wine but we can’t have a hard alcoholic beverage because we might get drunk
8) We can’t gamble
9) We can’t even go into a Casino for a meal
10) We can gamble, but not more than $20
11) We can’t visit beaches because we might see some scantily clad people
12) We can visit beaches but our wives can only wear one piece bathing suits
13) We can visit beaches but our wives can only wear bikinis that fully cover the entire breast and butt
14) We can eat dinner in a restaurant just so long as it doesn’t serve alcohol
15) We can eat dinner in a restaurant that sells hard alcohol but it can’t have a bar in it
16) We can’t dance
17) We can slow dance but we can’t fast dance
18) Our wives can’t wear a dress, blouse, or shirt that shows any breast outlines or nipples
19) Our wives can wear dresses, blouses, or shirts that show a little cleavage but no nipples
20) Our wives can wear skirts but they must be below their knees
21) Our wives can wear skirts that are above their knees, but not more than 2 inches, or 4 inches
22) Our wives can wear skirts but not the tight kind that show the curve of their butt
23) Our wives can’t even wear a thong panty because it might show above their pants or their skirt, and because thong panties are only worn by immoral women and godly women would not even want to own a pair much less wear them in public
24) We can’t enjoy oral sex, anal sex, intercourse doggie style, or cowboy style with the wife on top
25) We can’t go to movie theaters because that same theater shows movies that are R rated or NC 17 rated, or unrated, where nakedness is shown
26) On, and on, and on it goes. And there are those who will divorce one another over such issues, and do so all the time. This is all pure craziness and puts a blemish on Jesus. He gets blamed for all this nonsense, and Christians end up looking stupid, especially when polls show that believers watch just as much porn as do unbelievers, pastors watch it, women watch it, they masturbate, they enjoy oral and anal sex, etc. Christians overly struggle with sex when the bible has made sexual immorality very clear – fornication, adultery, sex with relatives, sex with children, sex with animals, forced sex, or sex with someone you do not intend to marry is ALWAYS sinful. Beyond these the bible says nothing about other things being sinful – masturbation, seeing someone naked, reading something erotic, fantasizing, etc.
The lists of things Christians have condemned go on forever, and all in the name of Christ, and all supposedly based on the bible. The bible and God get blamed for all kinds of nonsense that God will never own or agree with. I personally believe this is why so many who seek counsel and deliverance for looking at porn find no healing. Accountability groups, professional counseling, repentance, confession, or self hatred rarely help anyone get delivered from porn because deliverance is not what is needed. Self restraint, to not actually engage in fornication, is necessary in some porn users, but deliverance from enjoying sexual images is not something you are going to find God helping anyone to overcome. That would be like God delivering a person from appreciating a sunset, a new born baby, a beautiful nature scene, etc. God doesn’t heal them and grant to them a supernatural power to avoid porn because porn isn’t the issue to God that it is to most believers. Certainly He opposes compulsive behavior and sinful acts engaged in that have been urged by pornography, but most people who watch porn never do anything sexually sinful as a result of it. He isn’t going to deliver someone from something that isn’t sinful, even if they fully believe it is sinful. Our emotional hysteria doesn’t force God to accommodate that hysteria. If God enabled hysteria about all the things Christians become hysterical about He would not be the sane and balanced Being He is. He’d be like us…God forbid!
Do I think that God allows us to enjoy pornography? Absolutely I do. If we can do so without offending our spouse, without moving towards exhibitionism, child sex, fornication, adultery, sexual abuse, sex clubs, bars where naked dancers are performing, sex web chat sites, without becoming obsessed with it, without endangering our jobs, our reputations, our family, and our friends, then “yes” absolutely I think He permits it. It is when it hurts our witness, hurts our relationships, kills our worship and prayer lives, defiles our consciences, etc., that God becomes concerned. No one can declare that porn is “ok” for everybody. Any more than they can say drinking and gambling is ok for everyone. But each person must take stock of the impact of such things and decide if it is damaging their lives or others lives. If they do what they do wisely, privately, discreetly, and with the full knowledge and approval of their spouse then He doesn’t condemn it.
Here is Paul’s counsel for believers engaging in things that some believers consider sinful but which are not necessarily sinful:
Romans14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
In other words, if many Christians believe porn is “always” sinful and some don’t agree, then those who don’t agree should not openly express their appreciation for things that many Christians really struggle with. I don’t go around declaring my freedom to say “fuck” when I trip and fall on my property. I don’t tell others I drink a half glass of wine unless I can tell they would approve of such behavior. I don’t tell others we occasionally visit casinos and spend $20 having a little fun at the slot machines. I don’t attempt to shock people with the things I allow myself just because I enjoy watching them squirm or become hysterical. I love the body of Christ, and I don’t want to wound believers who have overly sensitive consciences lest they violate their consciences because they see me doing something they had previously considered wrong for them, and I don’t want to unnecessarily cause another believer to sin against me and God by falsely condemning me for behavior they don’t have the liberty for. We owe our brethren the grace and space to discover what liberties are appropriate for them, without seeking to shock them into things that will initially make them feel spiritually compromised. Each believer must accept they will have a private journey concerning many “gray” areas of life, and not expect others to accept what they have found acceptance for.
When people move into any gray area of life and it becomes hurtful to others then they must back up, re-evaluate their ability to enjoy it, or share that they enjoy it, without doing damage, and probably quit if it is controlling them, or be quiet about it and keep it to themselves. Pornography doesn’t control me. My wife enjoys it just as much, if not more, than me – probably because it is new and exciting for her and helps her achieve amazing orgasms. Our sex life is much better than it was prior to our sharing porn together. We love sharing a sexy pic or video with one another, and nearly always find it leading us to enjoying sex with each other. We love God with all our hearts, and we continually worship and share the Gospel with others. We have asked God for His insight on this matter and we continually find reasons in Him for allowing and enjoying it.
So, do we approve pornography? Absolutely, for some people, not all people. We approve some pornography but not all pornography. We will not watch any porn where either a man or woman are being hurt by it against their will, or of the type that is demeaning, degrading, or insensitive. We don’t favor three ways, orgies, public sex, sex with children or animals, or sex where God is mocked and spoken negatively of. But we will happily watch porn where couples are simply enjoying sex with each other. We find it helpful to our marriage sex lives. It is fun. It is educational, and it is just plain helpful to our marriage. For those who don’t experience it in positive ways they should stay far away from it.
Study after study shows that porn is “NEVER” the problem in crime, marriages, families, or society. It is when people who use porn do bad things porn is given a bad rap, but the problem with bad people isn’t porn…it is that they are bad or they choose to do bad things. Porn is entirely neutral. Do we grieve that prostitution, sex trafficking, sexual abuse, fornication, adultery, and other forms of horrible behavior too often are depicted or represented in pornography or become a contributor to such things? Absolutely! It doesn’t have to be this way. Porn isn’t the problem, but the problem is what bad people do with it, and the same is true of gambling, dancing, work, entertainment, recreation, etc.. People can turn any good thing into something horrible if they choose to. This doesn’t mean it is inherent. Two people enjoying sex with each other and sharing their joy with others in movie form for the purpose of entertainment and stimulation is just fine unless for you it isn’t and then you should stay away from it.
Each believer must privately come to God and His Word to determine the things they believe He approves and disapproves, and the conclusions they draw will never be universally agreed upon. We all see things through the filters we have developed.
You quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:11, which mentions "pleasure in unrighteousness." I think this is the heart of the matter that makes watching porn sinful. I don't think it by necessity involves lust or coveting (though that's a very real possibility), but I think the unavoidable sin in it is "taking pleasure in unrighteousness" as 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says.
Of course certain images or acts aren't inherently sinful to view. I think it's whether or not those acts and their context are already sinful that makes it potentially sinful to enjoy. Also, in that regard, we might be lumping too much into the "porn" category and contributing to a misunderstanding between us. Pornography literally means "writing (or depiction) of sexual immorality." This means if there is video of adulterous intercourse, that IS sexual immorality and is therefore porn. However, this means that a video of a married couple having sex isn't porn because the act is not immoral. That would fall under the Audio-Visual Erotica (AVE) category some in the MH community have started using. (Maybe I'll make a discussion post about those definitions at some point so we can all get a better understanding of them.)
Overall I think you are making solid critiques on the topic of viewing certain things. I can't think of a situation where it's wrong to merely *see* someone naked. In fact, I see so little problem with that idea that I could probably get used to living in a nudist community fairly easily. I also can't think of a situation where it's even wrong to simply see someone performing a sexual act.
I agree that very little, if anything in the Bible says it's a sin to watch another couple have sex. In fact, I think it's a beautiful thing! However, if we know that sin is being committed in that act of sex because the couple isn't married, I find it hard to justify enjoying that when it offends God. When you're hanging out with your best friend, would you watch or listen to any kind of media that you know they find deeply offensive? Would you laugh at a harsh joke made at your best friend's expense when they're standing right there? Or even if they're not present? This is to illustrate how, even though you weren't the original offender, your reaction to someone else's offense can harm your relationship with that friend. That's how I view this issue in relation to us and God.
I wanted to address your points about TV shows and porn too. As one who believes pornography is wrong and the TV shows you mentioned are not (though they're sometimes questionable), allow me to give my explanation.
Simply put, I think they're apples and oranges and cannot be directly compared. They both portray immorality, but they are fundamentally different in kind. The TV shows do of course show sinful things being done, but it's different in two serious ways.
1) The focus. Not always, but in most shows, the focus of the producers and viewers is not on the immorality, but on a broader story with sin mixed in, which realistically speaking is simply a portrayal of the real world, as unfortunate as that is. However, in porn, the focus of the producers and viewers is specifically centered on sinful acts.
2) The reality. In the shows, it's all an act; there is no real robbery, there is no real murder, there is no real sinful sex. But in pornography, it's a recording of a very real sinful act that took place. One is only a made-up story, one is a real sin. These two are as different as thoughts are from actions; as different as fantasy is from reality.
To illustrate this point, I think we would agree that when the injury is not real, it's acceptable to enjoy watching someone getting hurt in a comical way (Home Alone movies anyone?). But I think we would also agree it would be wrong to enjoy a video of a real person being brutally assaulted. That's the difference between pretend and real hurt; between fake and real sin.
I'm not necessarily discouraging or encouraging watching TV shows that portray immorality, I'm simply pointing out they can't be directly compared to porn.
That's my humble opinion. Thanks for sparking the thoughts and challenging me to think this over!
Specifically on masturbation. I have masturbated since age 13 and still do. Every man does! I guess that includes Cristian men too! I felt guilty about masturbation, and stopped for a while, but then I got “wet dreams” soaking my bedclothes. So I started again and lived with the guilt. My wife and I remained celibate while courting, but after being out with her I had to stroke a few off in bed simply for release! I guess when a guy is single he just has to release his pent up natural feelings, and semen, on something.
Interesting topic!
My question is: would it be wrong for a Christian couple who is excited by exhibitionism to make an explicit video of themselves making love and then enjoy the thrill of sharing it with other Christians? The video would be made by a loving couple joyously sexually expressing their love and passion for each other which is certainly not the case with commercial porn!
[From MH: You're right, Bill! This is an interesting question! Let's give it it's own post, shall we? Publishing on 11/28/19]
To answer your first question, this is my understanding of MarriageHeat: it's a place meant to share stories of biblical sexuality as a testimony of God's good gifts, and as inspiration for other married couples to see what's possible in a healthy, loving, intimate marriage! And of course, that inevitably comes along with some arousal as the readers imagine such beautiful things!
And while MH is primarily for married couples, there are single people who hang around, comment, and occasionally post stories. I'm one of them! So if you want to discuss sexual things with other single Christian guys, there's ONE here at least! And I don't think that's sinful at all. Of course, bad heart motivations can make basically ANYTHING sinful. But I think it's GOOD, not a sin, to discuss how we're supposed to steward and enjoy God's glorious gift of sex in the future.
As for masturbation, erotica, porn and the like, I've found that the biblical cases against them are not actually as clear as you might think they are based on the strictness of the church's teaching against them. As a result, I can't (and I don't think any of us can) tell you exactly where the line between right and wrong is. However, I can give you my personal analysis.
Masturbation has almost no good biblical case against it. From my study, there are two views of biblical sexuality–both plausible interpretations–that are in disagreement over masturbation. They agree that the Bible teaches "sex in marriage is good, and sex outside of marriage is bad," but they disagree over the middle ground where masturbation is. There's a pattern formed by all the scriptures on sex. One side interprets that pattern as "all sexual expression must be within marriage," while the other side takes it to mean "sexual expression must not be with any other person except one's spouse." There's a lot of overlap so they are mostly similar in effect, but yield different results when it comes to masturbation. Also, they have a logically different structure, where one says "it can ONLY be this (restriction is the default, and we are given a few specific freedoms)" and the other says "it can be anything EXCEPT this (freedom is the default, and we are given a few specific restrictions)." I believe in the second view. I believe that freedom is the default, and we must have strong evidence in order to prohibit a certain behavior. Given the lack of biblical evidence, I don't believe masturbation is sinful.
I'll say this as a summary of written erotica, AVE (Audio-Visual Erotica, like videos, of people engaging in non-sinful sexual acts) and porn: what we spend a lot of time with is what gradually shapes our minds. For that reason I'd say it's usually unhealthy to habitually read or watch anything that depicts sinful behavior, especially if it glorifies the sin, like porn does. Personally (after considering sinful vs non-sinful content), I draw the line roughly to include written erotica, but exclude most videos and images. This is partially based on personal feelings and convictions and partially on what I believe biblical principles teach us.
I find Christian erotica inspires God-glorifying thoughts and feelings in me, and I find it sets an example of excellence for me to strive for in my future marriage. I believe AVE could do that too, but I think it would be too consuming and overstimulating for me, and could have a detrimental effect on my future marriage.
AVE also trains your body and brain to passively take in stimulation, whereas erotica is better at training your imagination to be engaged and active, because it makes you construct the images in your head instead of feeding them to you. I think this might translate at least partly to being passive or active when real sex starts in marriage (hint: you want to be active).
Porn has all the same potential negative effects of AVE, but they are probably even more intense. We've probably all heard about the rising epidemic of porn addiction and how debilitating it can be, sexually and otherwise. It also almost always depicts sex in a sinful context, and as children of God, I believe it error for us to enjoy something that God hates and is grieved by.
Of course, masturbation and erotica can also have addictive and harmful qualities, so they too must be used carefully, but I believe they can be used in a non-sinful way.
I hope that helps a little! I pray for God's guidance in your life as you explore the topic of sexuality and seek to honor him with it!
Great story. My own masturbation is the one thing my wife strictly forbids in our marriage. It’s not about her upbringing or anything like that. I used to masturbate a lot. She made it a kinky game that we would try some new things but it meant no masturbation for me at all. I agreed to this more than a dozen years ago. She’s open to sex and loves the control to make me horny. She said “if anyone masturbates you it’s going to be me.” I agreed to this. The wrinkle is that she can masturbate if she wants. She agreed to try many things over the years though and I’m happy to keep my word to her.