Good Nudity
Since I was a teenager I’ve believed that simple nudity is good. I recently came across an article by Jeff Bowman called “Good Nudity.” It absolutely sums up many comments that have been happening lately on MH. Here’s an excerpt…
The Bible shows that God created our bodies and that His creation was good.
Genesis 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.”
Then we have the direct statement by God:
Genesis 2:25 “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
There you have it, naked and not ashamed! Now I know what you are thinking: “Yes, but keep reading, they sinned and realized that they were naked. They put on fig leaves to cover themselves, so nakedness is not good!” The problem, however, is that such a conclusion—that nakedness is bad—is not found in the text. Such a conclusion, while common among religious thought, is simply not found.
For the moment, let’s say that nudity is not good (some would even say “sin”) based on this common misunderstanding. Where do we find that it is then acceptable to be nude in front of your spouse (since most would say that this is OK)? What about the passage? Adam and Eve were the only humans at this point, and they covered themselves from themselves. As we read:
Genesis 3:7 “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
So Adam and Eve covered themselves from the sight of the other. Is this to be the normal conduct between a husband and wife? No, not at all. The entire Song of Solomon in the Old Testament is dedicated to sexual intimacy. There we find both the man and woman describing each other physically naked. It is obvious that nudity between a couple is a given, both in the Bible and society. The text tells us more, that Adam and Eve hid in the bushes from God. This is parallel to hiding their “private parts” from each other. They attempt to hide their personal/private lives from God.
“And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.”
Now notice the next statements from Adam to God as God calls out to him:
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Adam was afraid of God because he knew he was naked, so he hid. Now God asks Adam a very powerful question that was meant to open Adam’s heart to what has happened.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Adam was asked WHO told him that he was naked. The answer is of course found in the next question: “Have you eaten of the tree that I told you not to eat?” Yes, Adam and Eve did eat of that tree, and it was the power of that tree that “opened their eyes” (3:7, cp. 3:22) to their naked state.
Now we come to an important question. Was their nudity wrong or bad? If we let all the prior verses—which show God made the human body and that it was good, and that Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed—if we let these verses speak, their nudity was not bad. They had good nudity! So what is happening when we read that they put on fig leaves? To answer this, we must think from the texts of what we read.
Why the fig leaves? I’d suggest it is because they can’t handle the GOOD of their bodies. Their eyes had been opened, and they now know something they didn’t know before. Thanks to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they discovered that they were naked—they knew the GOOD of their bodies. Now in a changed relationship to God (spiritual death), they couldn’t handle the good. The forbidden fruit was said to give the knowledge of good and evil. Such knowledge is profound and powerful. Prior to eating the fruit, they did not have that knowledge. Also, Adam responds to God “I was naked…” when in fact he had just covered himself with the fig leaves Their good physical nakedness, even when covered, did not hide their spiritual sense of nakedness before the eyes of God. This knowledge of good and evil is a very seminal point. All Bible students know that this affects the rest of humanity.
They could not handle the good, so they sought to cover it up. This is the first instance of many more to come where humanity takes something that is good and becomes ashamed of the goodness of it all and has to cover it up. From this point onward humanity takes what God gives as good and either flat-out denies the good or changes it from good to bad. Notable examples: The land of Cannan which God gave to Israel, yet they said it was evil (Num. 13:32; cp. Deut. 1:35,39; Josh. 23:15); The Law which God gave to Israel yet it has been abused by humanity (1 Tim. 1:8-11; cp. Rom. 1:25; 7:7-25); and then there is the ultimate denial of good – God and His creation which is either denied or changed by humanity to fit their purposes (Rom. 1:20-25).
In eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they got what the tree would provide. Their eyes were opened to the reality of good and evil. We often focus in on the problem of evil, but here we see the problem of good. And simply put, we often can’t handle it! A sun rise; a sun set; the emotions of life; the undeserved love from another human; and ultimately the undeserved kindness of God. We can’t handle it—the GOOD! And we avoid the beauty; we hide our selves from unconditional love and shun any contact with anything that puts us near to seeing the kindness of God.
Adam and Eve covered up themselves from themselves; they couldn’t handle the good. They now had a sense of shame in their disobedience to God. They covered themselves from their good, naturally nude bodies and they hid in the bushes from their wonderful Good God. Such an act of disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit had its effects. It was in their estranged state from God that the good shamed them and they covered up the wonder of the good. Later David would cry:
“I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.” (Psalm 139:14)
About now you are thinking: “So, OK, I can see what you are talking about. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and their eyes were opened. The first thing they saw was their nakedness, which was said to be good, and yet they covered it up. But didn’t God agree with them that nudity was something to cover up when He gave them coats of skins?”
To this, I answer that He did provide them with coats of skins but for more practical reasons. I’d suggest at least three possibilites: First, He needed to atone for Adam and Eve’s transgression so an animal was sacrificed—a shadow of what would come under the law with Moses and, ultimately, the death of His Son Jesus for the world. They would wear that coat and be reminded that a blameless animal took their place in death. It has also been suggested that their wearing or ‘receiving’ of the coats demonstrates that they accepted God’s atonement for them, thus placing them back into fellowship with God. Second, He had cursed the earth (3:17,18) resulting in thorns, thistles and other plants that are rough on a nude body. The skins would provide them with protection from the new hostile environment. Some sort of clothing would be needed as He sent them out from the Garden of Eden. Lastly, there is a possible aspect of accommodation—God accommodating them by giving them a covering until they could learn to deal with the knowledge of good nudity. There are several places in scripture where mankind needs help or requests something that God didn’t think they needed, but He granted it anyway. Examples: Israel’s request for a king to rule over them. God would have rather they had Him rule over them, but He granted their request anyway (1 Sam. 8); Israel desired food and “tested” the Lord, and he granted their request but sent “leanness into their soul.” (Ps. 106:15)
It would be completely inconsistent for God to create Adam and Eve nude and then for that nudity to be bad. One study Bible said: “Adam’s sin was evidenced by his new knowledge of the evil of nakedness…”[The MacArthur Study Bible, John MacArthur. Word Publishing, Nashville, 1997, p.20 (Comment on Genesis 3:11)] How can this be? How could nudity be good one second, then evil the next? We must not read a cultural aversion to nudity into this passage. Their good nude state didn’t change. They now had knowledge of good, and they could not handle it, so on went the fig leaves. God doesn’t tell Adam, “Good job Adam, covering up the evil nakedness.” Rather He asks how Adam knew he was naked with the obvious connection, “Have you eaten of the tree whereof I commanded you that you should not eat?”
When you read the passage, you’ll also discover that God nowhere condemns nudity or their bodies. He gave many pronouncements (3:16-19) that affect their (and our) lives as they were to live under the “curse,” but nothing about nudity. In fact, in my study of nudity as discussed in the Bible, I find no commands against simple, basic nudity. I have come to see that nudity is a non-issue and is allowable to humanity as culture, climate and conditions allow. This last sentence is important—as culture, climate and conditions allow. In other words, nudity is in itself not evil or bad; it is natural and neutral. Nude is not lewd.
At this point, I must address two common ideas about nakedness:
First, “Doesn’t’ modesty imply that nakedness is wrong?” Modesty actually deals with what is put on the body, not what is taken off or absent. We say a person has a modest income we are describing the small amount they make. The word modest is only found in 1 Tim. 2:9 (KJV). It is the translation of KOSMIOS from which family of Greek words we get our word cosmos, and cosmetic. It means the arraignment of things, their orderliness. Applied to people, it would be clothes or other add-ons that are not considered excessive by culture. Such excess can only be culturally defined.
Second, “Doesn’t nakedness cause lust?” No, lust is caused in the heart of the person by their own sin. Lust is a strong word denoting an “I’ve got to have it” and “I’ll get it whatever way I have to” mentality. A new car, house, or job can be an object of lust. So can a fully clothed person. Also, those in the health field, who are around good nudity, can attest that a nude patient is simply that, a nude patient.
There are some notable examples of good nudity in the Bible. It is not my intention to identify all or document these illustrations in detail. Also, I am fully aware that the Bible presents examples of “bad” nudity as well as the most common usage, that being a word that describes a poor, destitute or impoverished state. My point is that we have overlooked the good nudity that is found in the Bible. Nudity in itself is not bad; an unclothed body is said to be good by God. May we not say something that God calls good is evil or bad or sinful.
Here are some examples of good nudity:
- There is Saul who along with the Prophets of his day went nude (1 Sam. 19:24)
- Isaiah walked around naked for three years as a sign to the people (Isa. 20:2,3)
- Peter wore only his birthday suit when he was fishing – nudity being the work clothes of choice (John 21:7)
- David danced before the Lord wearing nothing but a revealing linen ephod (2 Sam. 6:14)
- The Apostle Paul and Barnabas get naked as they show their humanness to the townspeople of Lystra when they thought they were the Greek gods Hermes & Zeus (Acts 14:14).
- Then there is the all-pervasive element of circumcision. Starting with Abraham, God institutes circumcision for every male. Social nudity was common whereby a man’s circumcision (or lack of it) would be seen. From Abraham to the Apostle Paul, such good nudity is the only way this special sign would be seen (cp. Paul’s circumcising Timothy, Acts 16:1-5; yet not Titus, Gal. 2:3). This helps explain why we fail to understand the significance of the identification of circumcision – we don’t have the cultural experience of social (good) nudity.
Good nudity is so foreign to most Americans. What we typically see is what could be called objectified nudity. This nudity is on a voyeuristic level, in the pages of sex magazines and sex movies. Such objectified nudity is meant to sexually entice or allure. Good nudity acknowledges and celebrates the differences in each human in a non-sexual way.
Please understand, there is objectified nudity, and the body can be used to sin. But the problem isn’t the naked body any more than a clothed body. Nowhere does God say that the body is bad; He can’t. It is His image!
In other countries, nude swimming, public bathing and even nude recreation are widely accepted. In some cultures, nudity is a way of life due to very practical climate conditions. Because of this, the body is demystified for people (much like a doctor or nurse who sees nudity in a non-sexual environment) and the curiosity to “look and see” is fulfilled. Today, the same curiosity exists in the hearts of people, and it is typically met by viewing sexual nudity. It is my suggestion that if we had more exposure to non-sexual nudity, the “lust” factor would decline in our hearts. We would see the creation of God as good, and we would view the body not as an object of voyeuristic sexuality but as the wonderful creation it is.
Good nudity is found in our art museums and art books. Life is seen and the body is viewed naturally. Michelangelo, commissioned by the church, painted the Sistine Chapel and created larger-than-life sculptures with good nudity.
Hebrews 4:12,13 provides an insightful ending to this study. Here we read how God sees everything through His penetrating viewpoint. Note the use of the word naked:
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
Like Adam and Eve, we may try to cover ourselves. After all, we are told that “the clothes make the man.” But, the fact is that He sees us as we really are—our hearts, our souls, our minds, our spirits, and our bodies—“warts and all” and loves us anyway!
One day you might be called upon to help a family or loved one in their closing days. You might even be the one receiving the help. It is inevitable that nudity will be present. How will you deal with it?
Does this information help you to consider simple, non-sexual nudity in a new way?
Great post! I've been studying the issue of nudity over the last year as well. I have come to some similar conclusions. Although I did like the way you described it here: Their nudity was so GOOD they had to cover it. I hadn't thought about that before. But it makes sense. Similar to when people in the Bible saw an angel from God and they immediately bowed to the ground and wouldn't look at it. Some even say they couldn't speak or stand. Not because of shame or because it was bad, but because the goodness of the Lord was so good they couldn't handle it. Or it's similar to when God says nobody can see his face and live. It's because to see God's face would be to look into the face of absolute goodness and love. We couldn't handle it. So it's a good way to look at it.
So this raises a couple of questions. I would be curious to hear what you (and others) think about these issues.
1. If nudity is good, what are your thoughts about Christians viewing nudity on a site such as this one? What would you think about MH posting more revealing pictures as a part of some stories? Such as a picture of a woman's breasts or a penis or even a man or woman fully nude, showing everything. A few months ago they did post a picture of a woman topless and it showed everything. The reaction was mixed, but it was negative enough that they adjusted it so you can tell the woman is still topless but you can't see anything. I thought that picture was quite tasteful and it fit the story and I was excited to see MH going in that direction. I was disappointed when they changed it though. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
2. At the same time, God also created sex and said it was good as well. So what do you think about viewing sex with the attitude that it was created by God and it is good? Just as the nude body is created by God and is good. This is something I'm still wrestling with because I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand, sex is private. On the other hand, God created it so what are we so afraid of? And to follow your train of thought, the act of sex is a picture of Christ and the church. (Eph 5) So maybe our shame and hesitation associated with sex isn't from sex being bad, but because, like with nudity, it is so GOOD we don't know how to handle it. Is there a place for viewing the sex act in a pure way as an expression of God and his love for us? (I'm not talking about a cheap porno.) I don't know what context that would be, but this is one thing I am wrestling with understanding. If the nude body was created by God and it is good and therefore good to view, then why wouldn't sex fall into that same category? Since it was also created by God, blessed, even commanded and declared to be good.
Furthermore, if man had not sinned we would still be living nude in the Garden. We would see each other's nude form and think nothing of it. So I wonder if people would see each other having sex and think nothing of it as well. They would simply see it and move on and in their purity, they would associate it with love and God and pleasure and goodness. Much like if you happened to see a random couple kissing. You would enjoy the sight and be happy for them that they are enjoying that moment together. Is it possible to see sex in a similar way?
I would love to hear thoughts on this.
In answer to your question, I don't think there is anything wrong with enjoying the photos on this site. I remember the photo you mentioned and agree that it was very tasteful and fit the story well. The woman had beautiful breasts and we should be promoting a positive and mature attitude towards sex and nudity. By cropping the photo it gives the impression that she should have been ashamed which isn't right.
The story about the jacuzzi sex is an good example, it includes a photo of a woman underwater with one of her nipples and the top of her pubic hair exposed. It is very sensual and adds to the excitement of the story.
I think people get hung up on this versus es enjoying the site for what it is; a welcoming place to share and enjoy marriage erotica. It is perfectly normal to masturbate. I don't see how it is any different than if you viewed a picture in a Victoria Secret catalog while masturbating.
I can understand that not everyone may have the same comfort level but that doesn't mean everything needs to be a huge debate. If you thought a TV show was too sexual or violent, you would simply stop watching and not waste energy telling everyone that enjoyed the show why their were wrong.
Good thoughts, but the conversation needs to dig deeper to carry weight. Most people would agree that not all nudity is bad (marriages, art museums, massage therapy, etc). But the practical questions must be asked outright. Like, Is it acceptable for a man/woman to look at pictures of nudity? Some nudity is pornographic, but is all? Is the movie "Titanic" a porno because we see Kate Winslet's breasts? Can a person masturbate using nude images without lusting after the person in the image? What about looking at nudity in transparent clothing, like Victoria's Secret or… THIS site. Can some images be arousing or stimulating while not entering the lust zone? I have opinions on these, but no definitive answers. I think it's a gray area that will have lots of fluctuation for each person. Anyone want to share thoughts?
You're absolutely right. I would recommend reading my post I did a while back discussing lust. Basically we have misunderstood what lust is. Lust is much more than simply seeing or even enjoying the sight of someone's body-clothed or nude. The biblical idea of lust is from the Greek word epithumeo. And it is the equivalent of covet. In fact in the Greek translation of the OT, the word epithumeo is used when they want to translate covet. And it's more than simply noticing a person or enjoying the sight of a person. It has to do with desiring to take something that belongs to someone else and making it your own. So if I see another man's wife and I want to make her my wife, then I have committed lust, i.e. adultery in the heart. That's why it is considered adultery even though I haven't physically touched her. She belongs to someone else and the fact that I want to make her mine is lust. But simply noticing an attractive member of the opposite sex and even enjoying the sight, technically isn't lust. Again read my post "Thoughts on Lust" for more on this.
I would also like to agree with you on what you said. In the case of David & Bathsheba, there was nothing wrong with him getting turned on at the sight of her, only when he lusted/coveted her did he do something wrong. What you mentioned is what David did.
So yes, it's not wrong to masturbate to nudes women or fantasize because that's normal, God designed and you're not coveting. It's sad that lust is misunderstood by so many, but I'm you can share your wisdom on topics like this. Sexual Imagination is NOT Lust
I think I will do a post on what lust is. And not just lust but other related words the bible uses.
I agree, it is perfectly normal to fantasize and masturbate unless you are hiding it from your spouse. My wife will give me her Victoria Secret catalog and mark pages where she finds the model or the lingerie sexy. It also doesn't bother me if she masturbates to an image of a male model or celebrity. A few months ago we watched the movie Gone Girl and in it, they clearly show Ben Affleck's penis. It turned my wife on so we paused the movie and I watched her pleasure herself. After I asked what excited her about the scene and she said she liked how large his limp penis looked coming out of the steamy shower. A couple days later I recreated that scene in our bathroom and we had a great steamy night.
CuriousChristian, this was an interesting comment. I would wonder, though, why it doesn't bother your wife for you to see the Victoria's Secret catalog or why it doesn't bother you for your wife to look at other men and for either of you to masturbate to it. Not judging, just wondering. My wife and I talked about this once and she said that for her, seeing other guys isn't as much of a turn on anyway. She feels that since we are married, she should "only have eyes for me" and I should "only have eyes for her." She feels that it takes away something special that we share between the two of us if either of us masturbates to or even derives visual pleasure from the sight of someone else.
Plus, does it not bother her if you look at a picture of a woman with bigger breasts than her or if the other woman is skinnier than her. Does it not bother you if she looks at a picture of a man with a bigger penis or more well defined abs than you, etc? I would love to get your thoughts on this aspect as I'm curious how you guys handle this in such a way that you both have the freedom to enjoy the visual, even right in front of each other like with your wife masturbating to the movie scene or giving you the catalog, without feelings of jealousy or shame coming into the picture.
HornyHubby, I believe jealousy occurs when too much emphasis is placed on physical attributes and communication breaks down resulting in trust eroding. My wife and I try to maintain healthy self body images and constantly remind one another how much we love each other. It is important to remember that sex isn't the only important thing in a marriage and the physical aspects of sex aren't the most important either. We focus on the love and intimacy aspects of our marriage and sex life and constantly talk. There is a huge difference between reality and fantasy and finding another person attractive is normal. We feel secure in our marriage and know that a fantasy doesn't replace anything in our marriage and doesn't contain any intimacy.
As for concerns on body type, again we feel comfortable in our own skin and aren't jealous of others. I have an average size penis and the fact that it is about 5 inches has never stopped me from pleasuring my wife. It doesn't bother me if my wife is aroused by an image or video of a man who is twice my size because I know that we will always be faithful to one another. It can actually spice up our marriage to see her get aroused and to help play out her fantasy by fucking her with a large dildo as I lick her clit. It helps to talk and learn what turns your spouse on and being open to try new things.
I hope this helps.
I'd love to share some thoughts. Its funny you should mention Titanic, my hubby & I happen to love that movie. Of course it's not pornographic, that word originates way back and originally meant immoral sex and the scene when Leo & Kate make love actually reminded my husband and I of us. Also, the scene you mentioned where he draws her nude actually gave us an idea and I've written about it (don't want to spoil it 😉 ).
Also, i mentioned before that lust in synonymous with coveting (Romans 7:7) so it's not getting turned on, or even having a fantasy – it's thinking about how you can go to bed with them without being married to them first.
BTW, it's lovely to hear from you, HornyHubby. How is your wife doing?
Lust and coveting is broader than you define it. And anyway the bible uses other words not just lust. It's worth researching this issue.
I read the Bible as stating that they're one and the same.
Yeah, I know, good on you. But when the bible say something like 'lust is covetousness' that doesn't mean the 2 words have equivalent meanings. Language just doesn't work like that. The 2 words overlap but have different ranges of meaning. We need to take a step back and do proper research on the biblical use of the words and other related words. Many scholars have done this… it's worth a look at their work. Yes, lust isn't arousal. Thank God! But it seems to me lust is talking about more than just the idea of wanting to possess someone in a narrow sense, or whatever, and covetousness means more than that too. Another biblical statement is that 'covetousness is greed.' So that's another word to throw into the mix. And there are others like lewdness or 'sensual indulgence' or sensual gratification' and so on.
A lot depends on getting this right. Let's pray for each other to come to a right understanding. Could you pray for me? I'll certainly pray for you. Masturbating to pictures of nude women… wow, how isn't that pornography! How isn't that lust/greed/covetousness whatever word you use? How is that 'treating younger women as our sisters in all purity' (1 Timothy 5:2)?
Ok clearly you & I are not on the same page, & probably never will be. We read the Bible differently. I don't believe he's saved. I've explained before that the origin of the word pornography meant fornication. Remember I also mentioned Romans 7:7.
"How is masturbating to nudes not lust?" Because you don't intend to actually sleep with them! Lust is NOT simply being sexually aroused by someone of the opposite sex, it is the thought and intent to possess the person sexually outside of marriage. And a lot of those "scholars" twist scripture, and make it mean what THEY want rather than what it actually means, so watch our for that and be careful.
Like it or not, those two words are synonymous, and you don't define lust correctly because, sorry, lust has nothing to do with sexual arousal or fantasy, it has to do with sexual covetousness as Paul states in Romans 7:7.
So you, & other Christian man can enjoy the sight of, the image of, or the memory of any woman, married or single, and you can even masturbate to their beauty as long as you are not thinking of or scheming to try and actually possess them sexually outside of marriage.
This is a sex-positive site, so for goodness sake, stop condemning people for simply doing what comes naturally. And be free yourself. Of course I can pray for you, and I certainly will be.
I tried to post this link before, but I think it was marked as spam because of the link. Trying again.
This dude has an excellent discussion on the Biblical definition of lust. Seriously worth the read.
http://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/most-misinterpreted-bible-passages-1-matthew-527-28/
From the article: "Jesus is not suggesting that any sexual thought or inclination towards a woman is sinful. Nor is he suggesting that such thoughts or attractions being triggered by a look are sinful. The look is not the problem (nor is the presence of a beautiful woman, which some of that day tended to blame as the real problem); no, these are assumed. What is remarkable (given the popular misinterpretation) is that Jesus likewise assumes the presence of sexual desire in the man as a given, and that sexual desire isn’t seen as the problem. Instead, Jesus addresses the matter of intent, of volition, the purpose of the look. The issue is not the appetite itself but how a man directs this natural appetite and inclination. (I’m reminded here of the old saying: If you’re a young man on a beach and a beautiful woman in a bikini walks past and you don’t feel any sort of excitement or attraction, it’s not because you’re spiritual, it’s because you’re dead.)"
We rarely passed linked comments along…
I think it is perfectly normal to masturbate while viewing photos. It only becomes unhealthy when you can't separate fantasy from reality or it becomes something you hide from your spouse. I think I speak for a lot of visitors to this site, in regards to enjoying the sexy stories and photos while masturbating. They are erotica and are supposed to cause arousal. If I really enjoy a story or photo, I tell my wife because it is a good way to help her understand what turns me on and the same goes for her. For the first time this morning, my wife let me give her a cum facial because she noticed I liked those stories. In return, I shaved my cock completely because she loved a story where a wife described her husband's large shaved cock. It doesn't make us jealous because we trust each other, we know it is fantasy and we talk about it.
Yeah, and it also becomes unhealthy if it takes over your life, and becomes and idol. I agree that sometimes, erotic materials can help enhance marriage intimacy but in moderation. God bless 🙂
This kind of masturbation (to an image of someone other than your spouse) is exactly the kind of thing Jesus is warning us against in Matthew 5. Arousal is one thing (a natural response) masturbating to that is a whole other thing. Can you imagine Jesus masturbating to a photo of someone he's not married to? We are taking something from someone that is not ours to have. The more we do this kind of thing (masturbate to the sight of those we aren't married to) the less freedom we will have to simply enjoy nudity (say at a nude beach) as a wonderful gift from God with no impure thoughts. Purity leads to more freedom not less. The more we stop using nudity for sexual gratification (which pornography teaches us to do) the more we learn to not sexually objectify others… the more social nudity can be a healthy part of life. Most Christian nudists see it this way. And see John's post below… there are long term effects of what you're doing… I know this from personal experience (which I mention after Johns post).
I think we may respectfully agree to disagree.
Jesus didn't even have a libido, so He's not our example. He was celibate, some have that gift.
P.S. Do you think that even if Adam & Eve hadn't sinned God would've clothed them at some point anyway? Our bodies are not like animals' where they have fur or something else to protect their bodies, so we have clothes to protect our bodies from sharp objects, and the like.
Some great insights about nudity here and I'll add mine. I love going nude at home and outdoors at nude beaches too. I don't see anything wrong going nude with others outdoors at a beach either. It's all about your motivation for going to such a place. If you go to enjoy the feeling of water, sun, and air on bare skin, as well as fellowship with other nudists (yes, there are Christian nudists), I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If you go in hopes of meeting a sexual partner and you follow through with that desire, that's where it becomes sin. As for noticing and enjoying the sight of other nudists, that doesn't become lust unless you attempt to seduce or you covet that person. It is possible to be thankful to God for creating our beautiful bodies. After all, David's sin wasn't noticing Bathsheba nude, but in allowing it to become lustful and then taking her for his own wife and having her husband killed.
Thank you! While I don't exactly agree with "Christian nudism" I still agree with the other things you say. Sin is always wilful and lust is not as easy to commit as many sadly think. David did allow himself to covet another man's wife, and as a result, he paid dearly.
Hey just in answer to your comments… I have been praying and reading more about this. I am very sex positive that's why I care about this issue of lust because a wrong understanding harms our sex lives. I know this from personal experience.
Please do not keep saying I believe that lust is arousal and fantasy. I do not believe lust is arousal as I've repeatedly said. And I do not think fantasy is always wrong. It's really frustrating that you say scholars twist scripture to mean lust is arousal when this is not the mInstream understanding at all. Lust is how we act on that arousal. If we indulge the arousal and gratify ourselves sexually with respect to that person through an objectifying way of looking at them or through masturbation, that is wrong. If you like, it's covetousness 'cos it's taking something that is not rightfully ours. Even if it's not actually planning to have sex with that person, or whatever, it's grabbing and taking something that isn't ours to have.
Sorry but i don't agree with that at all. You are NOT taking something just by fantasizing or wishing for it. You're purposefully planning to get it
I agree, it is crazy that they keep saying that "you are taking something" by masturbating. As long as you don't become consumed with it and are able to separate fantasy from reality than there is no harm. I think those that have an issue are also dealing with other issues but are trying to point the cause back to one thing. We need to promote healthy and emotionally mature sexual experiences. We don't want people to be confused and think they are abnormal or sinful for doing something natural.
I have been struggling with this concept myself for many years. Like Beach Lover Guy, I have been to nude beaches with my spouse. Quite frankly I did not feel any sexual arousal but rather a sense of utter peace and a zen attitude. It is like all the stress I had accumulated evacuated through my skin. With that being said, I have heard many Christian leaders condemn this in very vehement terms. So I'm kind of lost here and not sure how I should feel about it.
Yeah I think non-sexual nudity can be a good and healthy thing in the right context… but masturbating to nudes etc is way wrong! This is part of what I mean by 'nudity is GOOD but we can't handle it' – instead of just appreciating God's goodness, we use it for some voyeuristuc weirdness, or lust or 'sensual indulgence' (Ephesians 4:19), or exhibitionism or whatever… but we don't have to… we can learn another way. Jeff Bowman's website has a lot of helpful insights here.
I really enjoyed this article and the comments. I enjoy looking at nudity, especially breasts. But for a long time I didn't very often since I felt it wasn't fair to my wife.
Then one day I decided to open up to my wife about my sexual desires and what I'd like to do together.
Bringing up that conversation was very nerve racking – but to my surprise my wife was supportive and we actually looked at topless photos together – which was the hottest thing in the world to me. What an experience to share that with my wife.
I believe she enjoyed it to as our sex after taking time to look at images is usually more passionate than when we don't.
So from our experience looking at nudity together has brought some more passion into our bedroom.
This is a GREAT comment. How many years were you into the marriage, 'InLove'? And here's the crazy thing about "gray areas" – the way YOUR conversation with your wife played out (which is so loving and amazing by the way), may not be the way a different MH Reader's conversation goes with his wife. So, nude photos can be a wonderful supplement and aid to one marriage — while nude photos could essentially be destroying a different marriage. I don't think that it makes the nude photos "right" or "wrong" …but rather some "testing" has to happen to determine if a gray area like this is good and proper for YOUR life and YOUR situation. One of those test questions would be: "Is this helping or hurting my marriage?" But since the answers to that fluctuate so much, I can't really listen to anyone who says that looking at nude photos in a stimulated way (like, let's say, masturbating) is "always right" or "always wrong." That's why I love this comment by 'InLove' – he shared HIS story on what works in HIS marriage… and doesn't try to make it seem like this should apply to all other marriages. [Unfortunately I don't feel like I can be as vulnerable as 'InLove' because of some of the judgmental attitudes already posted in this thread. It shut down my desire to open up and share. Thus, this huge pat on the back for the A+ comment by 'InLove'!]
Thanks PacMan. We were married for 13 years when this conversation took place.
Very good! With our marriage it was similar. On at least two occasions we saw some love scenes in films that reminded me & my hubby of us, and it lead to some passion of our own, and it was unexpected both times!
It's certainly normal for you as a man to be turned on by breasts, it's how God made you! You were very sensitive, and also very brave to tell your wife about this, and your wife maturely accepted you for how God made you, though I have to admit I myself would be a little jealous if my hubby did that.
Just make sure to not become completely reliant on photos or the like to ignite passion, that's all 🙂 God bless you two!
Maybe as New Covenant Christians we should step back from legal/rule-based language and re-frame the conversation under beneficial/not beneficial and loving/not loving. It's still helpful to examine the law and rules stuff, but only to determine the underlying principles and heart of God as we seek to answer the New Covenant questions in our own lives.
I think when we do that, we discover God's design for sex is relational and covenantal (committed/faithful). Sex should push us toward intimacy with God and, if married, our spouse. When we look at all the sexual language God uses regarding Israel and the Church, we begin to understand sex as a through-a-glass-darkly type of construct intended to help finite humans grasp the infinite love and faithfulness of God.
And so maybe God's heart for sexuality isn't arbitrary rules, shame, and condemnation, but the living out of transcendent realities. The distortion of sexuality is a distortion of that truth, an affront to the character of God and His relationship to us.
So we can easily see the core problem with things like adultery or casual sex as violating the relational/covenantal nature of sexuality. That's the principle/heart behind the rules. Same with lust, which I define as coveting what God hasn't given you + ungratefulness for what He has given you. Or idolatry, which worships the creation (in this case sex), rather than the Creator that sex is supposed to point us toward.
With all this in mind, I don't see any injunction against nudity, whether sexual or non-sexual. Same for arousal and eroticism. These are all good and beautiful God-created things in the right context.
Is it an idol? Is it a compulsion that rules over me? For me sex can become that. Especially when when life is hard. It's easy to self-medicate with sex when I should be filling myself up with the Lord. I think most or all sexual sin has its roots here. We're all searching for the transcendent, something more. But true satisfaction can only be found in Jesus.
Is it loving? Is it adding or subtracting from intimacy with my wife and God? Is it a secret thing that draws me away from relationship? Does it make my spouse feel inadequate?
Is it beneficial? If we're talking about nudity/erotica: is it celebrating the beauty of God's design for the body and sex, or is it just the ugliness of unrealistic body parts, degrading practices, and selfish pleasure? Is it ethical? Are God's image-bearers (people) being treated with respect? I think that's where it's important to distinguish between good erotica and pornography.
Pornography generally doesn't meet these criteria. But I think there's erotica that does. My wife and I have experimented with some visual erotica that represents the human body and sex beautifully and respectfully. It was very hot and intimate sharing that together. But it's not for everyone. And as somebody else noted, not something you want to become dependent on. Just another spice in the toolbox, like the written erotica on this site.
Ms. Thornton:
"So you, & other Christian man can enjoy the sight of, the image of, or the memory of any woman, married or single, and you can even masturbate to their beauty as long as you are not thinking of or scheming to try and actually possess them sexually outside of marriage."
I've been reading this over and over trying to let it sink in. As a Christian man raised in a very legalistic environment, I was made to believe even "the feeling" of being aroused was a sin to entertain. While I reject pornography, and would even apart from my faith, due to its unrealistic view on relationships and the fact I require an emotional connection to want to "go there" with someone, I do find this an interesting and powerful thought in terms of being free to enjoy such images – whether clothed, less clothed, or not clothed, the female form is a powerful and fascinating thing in its beauty and diversity.
It's contrary to so much of what I've been taught.. but still.. very interesting. Very. Thank you for being willing to share your thoughts.
You're most welcome 🙂 Yes, it's sad the legalism has taken over so much, and with other things too, not just this. They seem to forget that we're not under the law but under grace, and some people might not be comfortable with something, and someone else might.
Arousal is not always voluntary, so how's that sin? Not that's it's sin regardless. You were designed by God to be turn on by women, that's all natural and normal. This is foreign to most people, sadly, and they always fear they're doing something wrong and they're not. I agree that porn as we know it is rather ugly, but pictures, or even films are inanimate objects, and those are just pictures that move. Those beautiful love scenes in films, why are they any different from the beautiful paintings? God bless 🙂
Harper,
I think you hit the nail right on the head. The Christian evangelical movement has been taken over by a form of legalism very similar to what the Pharisee at the time of Jesus practiced. It is true for nudity, eroticism and many other things. It's very sad and I strongly believe, non biblical.
One thing that does occur to me – thinking about this – it's a perspective that might come up in dating relationships. As I seek a Christian wife in the future, if this topic comes up, she may have a far different perspective as a woman who's heard the same legalisms and believes that appreciating this material is lustful. As a woman, how do you think we can better dialogue about this in our relationships? Websites like this definitely help, but may not be the mainstream perspective most Christian women I might date would have.
That might be a tough one, naturalgardener. Of course, one shouldn't shove this in a woman's face, as we shouldn't throw our freedom in other Christian's faces, but if you're going to bring it up, do so gently. Try explaining what certain words, such as lust really mean. Try explaining that just because you're tuned on by a woman that doesn't mean you want to sleep with them, and that it's in your nature as a man to be turned on by women.
Even women can sometimes be visual. Even before my husband and I were married, we were very much attracted to each other, but that didn't mean we wanted to sleep together – we didn't as we weren't married yet. That's just an example of what lust ISN'T. Does that make sense? Bless 🙂
I agree that women can be visual as well. While I am usually aroused by the stories and that thoughts they create, I have been turned on by visual aspects. My husband and I frequently play tennis with another couple and will enjoy their sauna afterwards. The first time, I couldn't help but notice my friend's husband was fully shaved and very well hung or how perky her breasts were. It was exciting but that doesn't mean I wanted to covet him. I love my husband but that doesn't prevent either of us from admiring beauty in others.
I agree with Harper here. I don't think you have to fret or worry about the situation too much in advance. If the relationship is serious, these types of conversations will inevitably come up, and it's probably safest for your heart if you assume that you won't always be on the same page. What I have found is that living in freedom, while not flaunting it, is attractive in the long run. Even someone who may disagree with you or have concerns about this issue, many of them will desire to become more free. Freedom is attractive! And there may be times you willingly reel in or limit your freedom as a way to better serve your girlfriend or fiance. It's important that she knows you may be aroused by the beauty of "women" – but you are a "one woman man."
From experience what we masturbate to we form a bond with. To masturbate to the image of someone other than our spouse rewires the neural pathways a little each time. Slowly our desires will shift and want more than we have. There is a saying. Before we remove a fence…we need to think long and hard about why it was put there in the first place.
I am no prude or legalist and quite uninhibited but bringing images of other women into my masturbation times takes me places that will ultimately be destructive. Seeing them on a beach or wherever is one thing and another issue. But masturbating to them while or after seeing them will rewire my brain. Check out what happens chemically in our heads at the point of orgasm. This reaction in the brain is why people can be sexually attracted to inanimate objects. It is also why erectile dysfunction is a problem on younger and younger men.
Just more thoughts to consider
Oh for goodness sake, your statements are so ridiculous they don't make any sense! God created the orgasm, and God also wired men to be aroused by women. So why don't you accept the fact that it's normal? Just because you orgasm to the thoughts of someone it doesn't mean you are going to go after them.
P.S. Maybe the reason ED occurs is because these young men abuse the tool of masturbation. Masturbation like anything can be abused, like if you eat too much, you can have health problems, but eating is not harmful in and of itself.
So these young men sin not by doing it, but by doing it TOO MUCH
I agree his statements are crazy but let's not suggest that erectile dysfunction occurs from masturbating too much because that is not correct either.
Ok, I'm sorry. I'm no expert, so I knew I could be wrong, but I understand there are other causes, though I wasn't generalizing in the first place. I thought it sometimes happened that way, but if I was wrong I'll accept that. Thanks James, and God bless
No worries, I know you didn't mean any harm. You always bring such an open mind to the discussion.
The only harm is the other two suggesting some physiological damage is caused by mastrubating. It is normal and healthy. Obviously you don't want to become consumed with it and start to draw away from real connections but that is not caused by masturbating too much, that is the result of other factors and something to discuss with your spouse and a doctor. No one should listen to advice given by someone who claims mastrubating is wrong because they feel guilty or their spouse gets jealous because that is a whole different set of issues that shouldn't be put upon others. Sexual freedom comes from being comfortable with you body and openly sharing with your spouse.
Right, and I can't help but think that sometimes, one may do something too much, or be addicted to something and then once they get delivered from that automatically believe it's sin simply because they were controlled by it, but it's not always like that depending of course, on what it is.
I am sorry but this comment is false and you shouldn't share your believes as medical fact. Erectile dysfunction is caused by things such as high blood pressure, obesity, etc. you Miya's well say that masturbation will cause hair to grow on your palms. Think about what you are saying, so I guess that means that millions of teenage boys that grew up masturbating to a poster of Farrah Fawcett all had their brains rewired, that is just crazy and harmful to say.
Due to the heavy use of porn and needing the intense stimulation of ever increasing doses of porn younger and younger men are finding that they have the inability to maintain an erection with a real woman. It is becoming a real issue with people who deal with such things.
The principle is the same by introducing a 3rd person into ones masturbation. As is creates an ever increasing need for more wilder exciting sexual experiences. It makectake years but it will happen.
I will agree that porn can distort the views and expectations of younger people which is why we need to promote healthy images of sexual behavior. Porn isn't intended for teenagers who are still developing their sexual maturity. If the only experience or point of reference they they have is that of porn than that will obviously increase the chance of them having a distorted view. In this regard it doesn't only impact young men but also young women who may feel inadequate physically or believe that men expect certain things.
However if you have a healthy experience with sex and grew up not being ashamed of your body and are emotionally mature than there is no harm in mastrubating to a fantasy. There is a big difference between being addicted to porn and occasionally reading/viewing erotica like on this site. I am sorry if you may have struggled in the past but I can confidently say that it has not damaged my marriage but rather strengthened it as we openly communicate with each other and grow our marriage both physically and emotionally. I wish you all the best.
Thanks John, yeah you are absolutely right. We need to be very careful to direct our sexual expression only to our wife. I made the tragic mistake of not doing this and it created a decade or more of unnecessary malcontent in my marriage. I won't make the same mistake twice. I will even be careful to not read too many of the stories here on this sight… and to stop reading a story when the Spirit tells me to. I certainly wouldn't masturbate to a story… 'cos I know the gradual and long-term result of that. I want to be enraptured by my own wife's breasts and hers alone (proverbs 5:19)… and her style of love-making and ways of being with me. The occasional story can give ideas… but I skim the explicit bits, and I have to be, and want to be prayerful and cautious with this site… my beautiful bride is my ONE AND ONLY.
Really well stated Stag! LH
Thanks LH! I appreciate your contributions.
Really??? Where did you get that from? I agree that 100% of any sexual touching or talking is to be only with our spouse. But you as men are no more disallowed from enjoying the view, and being aroused by the sight other beautiful women than you are of enjoying the sight of food or the smell of food that sits on another man’s plate. As long as one doesn’t try to sneak a bite of his food, or plot how to take it when he is not looking, you have not sinned.
Remember that the Song of Solomon is sexual, so why are these stories any different? I think that's also why this site came about, also to help those with sexual inhibitions, rather than condemn them for their own God-given sexual nature.
I think you're putting people into bondage here. God did not give us our sexual nature, only for us to completely suppress it. Your intentions may be good, but sorry, what you're saying here is utterly false.
Yo are 100% correct, they are passing false judgement and trying to put people into bondage. If they don't want to enjoy the stories and/or pictures and masturbate then that is their choice but it is wrong for them to condemn those that choose to enjoy it. Not everything needs to turn into a debate of right or wrong when there are times when decisions are based on an individual's preference.
Thank you, James. I agree, I think this is one of those "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" things, and some people feel one way, and others feel another way. There are gray areas where the Bible doesn't discuss something, so I think those things are up to us to think for ourselves.
Nobody condemned anyone. Just making valid points to think about. True freedom requires discipline after all.
I'm not sure why… but Harper you seem to keep missing the point. I have enjoyed going to nude beaches etc, etc (I don't these days, out of care for the who are scandalised by that… but I just love the freedom of it – its glorious). I am very comfortable with nudity, etc, etc. I've been to art classes and drawn nude women and men. NO PROBLEM. I have no problem with seeing nudity, etc, etc… I wish we would all get over our hang ups with nudity. I'm not worried about getting a little aroused sometimes – that's only natural… but actually it's something nudist men learn to control, mainly because when you are around nude people a lot with all shapes and sizes you basically relax and its no big deal, just fun. It's healthy. Just simple nudity not sexualised. It helps us to see the opposite gender differently and with grater respect. Many studies have been done on this. It's not some big sexual thing anymore.
So I wish people could be naked more without it being such a big deal. BUT, BUT, BUT… I have, over the years, worked hard at how to NOT use women for my own sexual gratification (which masturbation is) but to simply enjoy what God has made and thank him. And part of this is I've learnt to not dwell too much on the sight of a beautiful woman. To just move on, not obsess, not indulge. And I know when I am in danger of becoming voyeuristic, etc… and when to move on. And how to follow the Spirit. The same goes for reading the stories on here. There's no way I would use them for masturbation material, etc. That is off limits for me. This is not condemning anyone – I've been there, done that. This is the pathway to true freedom. Sex just gets better and better with my wife when I guard my heart this way. Seeking sexual gratification through viewing or reading… I know from experience what this does to me – how it pollutes my marriage and my relationship to Christ. At first this kind of sexual gratification is exciting, but pretty soon it dilutes, it numbs, it destroys. Lust is the great destroyer. Purity builds the fire in marriage.
…. PS… and Song of Songs is explicit but not explicit in the way some Christians keep saying it is. It's poetry and artistry keeps it from being unhelpful through metaphor that works on many levels and isn't crass or gratuitous. I don't have time to unpack this here… but I'd like to.
I love that you quoted a verse from Proverbs from a guy who had 500 wives and 500 concubines. Ha!
(Otherwise I applaud you knowing your limits and finding what is healthy for you. A recovering alcoholic needs total sobriety, while the elder in a Reformed church might drink heavily without getting drunk. Each person will have different limits, and shouldn't think their personal limits apply to all others.)
Solomon is famous for not following his own wisdom!!! Cool. But I didn't come to this by knowing my own limits. But by careful study of what 'lust' means. For my this is a do or die issue… for me, this is the crucial issue of this site… 'what exactly is lust?'… which is why I'm so passionate about it. And hey, thank you for your contributions on defining lust.
I venture that it's not strictly "how much" a man masturbates as how he masturbates.
Growing up in a home where such things weren't discussed, and I was afraid of being "found out" that I masturbated, my masturbation was very secretive and hurried. This taught me a pattern of "quickies" but the problem for me wasn't that I masturbated, it was how I was doing it. With shame and lack of comfort.
As I've matured and had privacy, living alone, spending more time nude, etc. I've learned to take my time, enjoy sensations and explore my body and not rush to climax which has actually helped my stamina. Even though I masturbate probably what some would consider a lot, I am able to last longer. Sometimes my masturbation isn't even about the orgasm. It's just meditative and feels relaxing and good to do for a longer period of time with no hurry. Hopefully my future spouse will understand and appreciate this, as I see myself as someone who is always very honest about such things with someone I would be marrying.
I am sorry that you experienced shame when you were younger but glad to hear that you are becoming more comfortable as you should. I wouldn't worry about your spouse not approving as it is something natural and will help you be able to communicate what you enjoy so she can help.
If she really cares for you, she'll understand that's how God wired you. Of course, she should be willing to give herself to you sexually, and understand your needs, but it's also very good that your stamina improved, so she might see that it helped with that as well.
Loved the story and loved the discussion. I could EASILY be a nudist. LOVE being nude. I am nude at home at least 4-5 hrs a day and sleep nude. I have not been nude around others, yet, I would like to experience that, but have debated whether that is something right or not. So, I have not tried it yet. Again, I appreciate all of the thoughts because they represent many different sides of this issue.
Harper. Jesus was tempted in all points like us.
Being celibate doesn't mean having no libido. Having the 'gift of celibacy' doesn't mean having no libido. Jesus had a libido.
I think it all goes back to the ultimate war- the war on women!! Eve began that war & it’s taken satan lots of years till today he has Feminists running earth, thanks to demonic influence to DESTROY males who (created in God’s image more than us ladies) KNOW that nakedness is good but have been taught it is EVIL by…. You guessed it women!!! (Insecure women who FELT soo insecure because manhood and true masculinity has been being butchered spiritually for centuries).
Spiritually you ARE correct it IS good, our culture and upbringing DOES play 80% of a role of our lives satan knew this. But GOD always has taught His children in His perfect timing and as I read your article (along with lots of other little things here and there concerning this topic) I am soo happy to say that all my 20 some years of early life (I’m only 30) and the ‘religious’ taught behaviors and LIES concerning nudity as PURLY EVIL or sexual are melting away!!!
I will add too though that this blindness to non sexual good nudity is rather recent. My husband and I recently found out that as late as the 1970s older men and women (from European heritage mostly) were still using the YMCA nude! And in the 20s & 30s schools had group nude swimming or sports (yes boys and girls). This EXPLAINS why our great grandparents weren’t awkward virgin brides or grooms (a newer and never heard of before concept). Historically family members discussed and shared this info and probably swam/bathed together nude on the regular.