How Do You Know When You are Done?
From MH: This post is not strictly relevant to MarriageHeat’s theme. The submitter is asking for marital advice rather than sexual advice. But since a vibrant, healthy marriage is integral to a vibrant, healthy married sex life, we decided to let it post. It is the exception to the rule, not a new policy.
My husband and I have been married for ten years. Over the course of our marriage, we have had our ups and downs. I came into our marriage with a six-year-old. He had no children. Almost five years ago, we had our daughter. Over the last ten years, we have fought about money, disciplining the children, etc. I have been the one primarily working while my husband stayed at home. Over the years, I have become angry and resentful. I am at a loss for what to do. I have suggested therapy and talking to our bishop. But my husband believes playing video games is his therapy. What should we do?
I'm sorry to hear that you and your husband are in a tough spot. All marriages have tough seasons. Proud of you for speaking up. First I recommend you read 1 Corinthians 7. It is a foundational New Testament passage regarding marriage. Use this passage as a catalyst for prayer over your relationship. Second, I recommend that you start seeing a Christian marriage counselor (Focus on the Family can help you find one in your area) even if your husband is not interested at this point. You can only control you at this point. Also do you all have good friends that are committed to their marriages? It is wise to be in community with other Christian couples that understand that marriage is a covenant relationship between the wife, the husband and the Lord. Satan would like nothing better than to isolate you and your husband and discourage you to the point where you all think the marriage has to be ended (assuming there is no abuse or adultery) because then the author of lies can use it in his campaign against the Gospel. Blessings
Thank you. I start therapy next week. My husband says it is not necessary. As for friends we have never really socialized with anyone. I think the years of isolation have caught up to me. I will pray on what my next steps should be.
Bashfangel16,
Glad to hear that you are starting counseling. I don't know the outcome but I know the Lord will be faithful to you as you pursue Him with a whole heart. I come from a scrambled egg family and have had way to many stepmoms and stepdads. Thankfully, the Lord has blessed me with a beautiful wife for the past 25 years. We have ups and downs like any couple but have seen the Lord's faithfulness.
Thank you
Hope that your therapist is marriage friendly. My wife and I were separated for almost a year and a half and she was planning divorce-( no infidelity or abuse on either side) but Jesus helped turn our marriage around and now we have been back together, almost 15 years. Wow, I had not even counted it lately.
Michelle Weiner Davis has a book and maybe a website about Divorce Busting and I think she has some Youtube videos about how if one partner changes their steps, the dance changes, so one partner by making positive changes, can change the whole dynamic of the marriage.
Hang in there.
This post brings up so many memories of my wife's and my 33 years of marriage, mainly the earlier years. We fought about money issues, raising and disciplining of children, and last but not least, sex or the lack of sex. I am praying that your councillor is marriage positive and hopefully is a Christian as well. TBC offered a great model of prayer attitude of 1st Corinthian 10. I would also go further such as 1st Corinthian 13:4. This depicts two differences. The first is that this describes God in His fullest, and the second is the best way to premise our marriage to each other. All I can say is this: please please please don't give up on your marriage. My wife and I fought like cats and dogs over a lot of the same issues, but through prayer to our heavenly Father and having an open heart for each other, we made it through, bruised a little but not broken.
In your anger do not sin. If you can remember to, in the heat of whatever battle you are in, stop and pray over the situation and over your husband wholeheartedly and for you and the children. Maybe since he doesn't think counselling is needed, maybe you can get into a small group at a church or a bible study. My wife and I learned so much from doing life together with others in a small group, and socialization with others may be the ticket. I would conclude with this: don't use sex as a weapon. It may be hard at first, but sex is great communication between husband and wife. To Him be the glory!!
Wow, your husband sounds alot like two of my brother-in-laws. Do your part to work on you. You CAN'T change him no matter how hard you try. Only Christ can change your husband. At some point hopefully he will realize he needs to step up to the plate.
Now understand one thing: just because your husband and you have differing opinions about money, discipline, etc, doesn't make you right and him wrong. You both could be wrong, or you both could be right. An opinion is an opinion, and that is ok. You both need to see where the other person is coming from.
My wife has a huge tendency to say that I am wrong or off base if I'm not in agreement with her over something. The truth is, because of trauma and possible abuse in her past, she tries to exert control over many things in our family and relationship and flys off the handle if I don't agree with her. Why? Because being in control feels safer to her as she has trust issues. As I understand this better about her, I can now offer her some grace yet firmly and gently remind her that her behavior is a bit over the top.
Has he changed or did you think he would and he has not? The devil never broke up a marriage but maybe he convinced us to pick the wrong person to wed. Maybe God has a person in mind that will make you happier. Most marriages fail. Maybe seek counseling on your own and see if the problem rests in your belief he will change. Divorce when there are children involved is sad. However ,it can be like tearing off a bandage. Better to get the pain over with than have it consume you for years.
Not all marriages should be saved. Maybe counseling will help you decide about yours.
Thank you for your insight. We have had communication issues from day one. I think you guys are right I need to work on me. I started eating better, beautifying myself, and working hard at work and school. I’m hoping the counselor can help find clarity.
I'm sorry, but with respect, I must strongly disagree, SecondMarge. I don't believe it's possible to "marry the wrong person." Yes, marriages may be severely strained, but that's never an excuse for divorce. I think I'm in the minority here, but I believe Jesus makes extraordinarily clear in Mathew 19:3-9 that the ONLY allowance for divorce is in the case of sexual immorality. Even then, I've heard it's possible that this exception was only meant to address the betrothal stage, and once marriage was formalized, there was no backing out for any reason. I'm not certain of that, but it's a possibility.
I also believe that God is utterly sovereign over EVERYTHING, and works ALL things together for our good (not at all to imply you don't, SecondMarge). Therefore, because God ordained the circumstances that brought two people together in marriage, and because he also has such a strong stance against those two people separating, I don't think it's even possible to marry the "wrong person." If it were possible and it happened, that would make God's orchestration of the circumstances wrong, which would make him imperfect, which would make him no longer God. Following this train of logic, EVERY marriage is ALWAYS worth fighting to save. Thank God the situation outlined by Bashfangel doesn't sound abusive, but I believe even those marriages have hope. This may be a minority and unpopular opinion, but take it for what it's worth. (As a disclaimer, of course I would never advise that someone stay in a physically or emotionally dangerous situation, but I believe that can be escaped by temporary or even indefinite separation without unbiblical divorce.)
Bashfangel, don't give up hope. I have heard more testimonies than I can count of God bringing unbelievable healing to marriages in far worse situations than yours. Definitely do go to counseling, even if you have to go by yourself. It will help you grow as a person and learn how to understand and work with your husband better. Don't be overly critical of him, but try to lovingly and graciously understand why he behaves like he does. And try to understand what your part is, however small it may be, in the fights you have.
You seem to understand that isolation is not good, and indeed, it's a breeding ground for all kinds of bad things. Getting into a good Christian community should be a top priority, perhaps even above professional counseling. And if you have time while commuting, working out, etc., listen to some Christian marriage podcasts (I personally listen to The Naked Marriage and Fierce Marriage). That can help you see what God wants marriage to look like, and help you see where and how you can make changes. (Maybe even see if your husband will listen with you!) By listening frequently and immersing yourself in good teaching, you can begin to incorporate truth into your subconscious thoughts and behaviors, as well as your conscious ones.
I would also echo others' advice to prioritize working on your internal self; your spirit over your body (though the body is important too). If you don't already, spend consistent time in God's word. It has truth for every situation, and I know from experience that it can speak into our lives in surprising ways! And of course, pray in humility for guidance, endurance and unshakable hope in Christ.
So, how do you know when you're done? My answer is that, with God's goodness, power and hope on your side, you are never done. There's always hope!
My prayers go out to you, your husband, your marriage and your family. Stay strong, my sister in Christ! 🙂
PatientPassion you should never concern yourself with how popular your opinions are or how many people disagree with your opinion. If you have come to the conclusion that A verse in the Bible says something, and then “therefore” something else is true and then followed your logic, stick with it. But sometimes life experiences teach us there maybe more than one “therefore” that leads to a different logical conclusion. I hope you never experience the things that lead to divorce. It is never a good thing. We never counsel anyone to take that path lightly.
SecondMarge, I appreciate the respectful reply. In that comment about a minority opinion, I simply wanted to recognize that not all Christians agree with me, and perhaps only a minority do, so I can't speak for Christians in general or for God.
I have deep sympathy for those facing things that might often lead to divorce. I can only follow my convictions from the Word and the Spirit and humbly express what I believe is true, and I appreciate your encouragement in that regard. 🙂
I also have to say to proceed with extreme caution regarding divorce. Can someone marry the wrong person? I don't know, but here is thought. Arranged marriages have been going on for eons and still do to this day. Families carefully choose a spouse for their son/daughter. Not sure how it is all done, but many of these marriages work, so I figure it must be the way the marriage is carried out and the support family and friends give. My advise is to seek wise counsel in a godly mentor, a Christian woman whom you admire and who appears to have a strong marriage. As far as podcasts go, check out Adam Young, The Place We Find Ourselves. Great info there on how people react and behave due to experiences from their past and the development in their brains. Really helps to understand yourself and others.
The Christian life if not about "happiness", it's about Christ sanctifying each one of us…period. If respect is waning, that is not an issue where God decides to step in with an alternate plan of bringing about divorce so He can supply a new spouse that will make the frustrated spouse happier; I have no idea where anything like that can be supported in scripture, in any form, whatsoever. Heaven forbid Eve's respect for Adam waned after he blamed her for the "apple" the incident. Are we saying that at that time God might have given into a plan B for creating "Adam" part deux because that would make Eve happier as she might have lost respect for Adam? One would now have to wonder just how many new "Adam's" God might have possibly had to create? Again, God is not at all concerned with our happiness, but with our sanctification (being made Christ like until the day we die). Also, marriage is THE Biblical picture of that sanctification process on earth. This is a classic contemporary picture. A husband who, from what I've read, is at least somewhat on the man-child side. A wife, who fills the gaps in responsibility left open by her husband (i.e. bread-winner and going to school). A husband & wife who are growing independent of each other, and at different rates. As a result of these ongoing factors, a wife who has lost any respect she might have had for her husband.
This is an incredibly common picture in society, today. I see it at every turn in my professional sphere, and I hear the women at work talking about this same level of frustration all the time and for the exact same reasons. A man who does not work is not Biblical. Man (or Men), were created to work. A man who is not working, when he is physically able to do so, is problem for society. I don't believe God made men to be stay-at-home dads.
Having been through a painful divorce with kids, I would definitely say proceed down that road with caution. You talked about working on you, which is good but it sounded like a lot of external things. I would make your internal self a priority. Read some good books and make time each day for the Lord. Cry out to Him and ask that He would change you. Spend time with Him and receive His grace and love for you. He is a good God and He loves you so much. Humble yourself and He will raise you up in due time. It is crazy how when God changes you, people around you will be changed as well. On a lighter note, watch War Room, it is a good movie about your situation from a Godly perspective. I will be praying for you and know that there are people who have been where you are and made it through with the strength of Christ.
We have a passionate marriage, and one that is sometimes volatile. We have forgiven each other seven times seventy and then some. Fortunately, we have a tenacity towards our relationship that has served us well. There is a richness to our relationship because of our longstanding commitment to each other. I don’t know what would have happened if one of us had lacked the toughness or commitment to forgive. We also both occupy ourselves pretty equally with our responsibilities. We work hard and play hard together.
Video games as a substitute for communication is worrisome. If one partner is committed and the other is not, I don’t really know what to recommend. I do recommend counseling with an experienced professional who is committed to marriage and Christian values. Ask around. If you need to start alone, then so be it. The worst you’ll get out of it, if he doesn’t eventually join you, is the knowledge that you have done all that you can to improve your marriage. You will also hopefully be guided by the therapist, enhancing your personal growth and better defining your strengths and weaknesses within your relationship.
As to your question, when do you end the marriage? In general terms, I think it is when it is obvious that there is no deep commitment on the part of one of the partners, leaving the other partner essentially alone. Your husband has a lot of potential secondary gain with your relationship if I am reading it right. You earn and he takes care of the home and kids and also plays video games and has other hobbies. I’ve seen Mr. Mom situations work beautifully. But I’m suspicious that in addition to earning, you also end up taking care of a lot of the household duties and make the kids eat their peas, so to speak, which causes conflict. Trying to rebalance your duties and your emotional relationship is where counseling is particularly valuable. If there is an extreme imbalance in the relationship and a failure to change, I’d still recommend some long-suffering and patience before pulling the trigger.
For most of the ten years I have worked full time, while i am finishing my college degree. Day husband has our older child do the bulk of the housework. My biggest concern is that even though we have argued about household chores for the entirety of our marriage it never gets any better. As far as counseling we have done it on and off for ten years only he sends my son and myself and says he isn’t the one with the problem.
There is no doubt mankind has free will. We make our own decisions. Hopefully we are guided by our faith. People are fallible so they make the wrong choice some times. Also people change. Divorce while unpleasant and something we should attempt to avoid is an acceptable solution. If God was making the decision for us, he would not only pick the right person he would make husband and wife do what is needed to keep each other happy. He would make the decision not to divorce. He clearly does not make those decisions as about half of marriages end in divorce. God may have made the clock and started it ticking, but he does not move the pendulum from side to side, it continues on its own. Successful marriages are more about willingness to sacrifice and compromise than finding the perfect partner. People are not perfect.
Thank you for your advice. I think this is going to take a lot of prayer and time.
It is hard to get a comprehensive picture with this format, but I think your husband has a pretty good gig. He has a wife who works full time and finishes the household chores that the children don’t finish. He supervises two school age children for a couple of hours until you get home. Most of the time he is free. Do you also handle the family finances? Mow the lawn? Initiate lovemaking? Take care of the pets?
Why would he want anything to change?
I love that God commanded husband and wife to cleave. But He also commanded that by the sweat of our brow we shall eat bread. You sweat and your husband seems to be under a fan in a lounge chair. I’m probably out of line, but I think that you need to take a serious look as to why you allow this type of unequal relationship. Counseling just for you may be a very good thing. You need to take care of yourself. That is something busy mothers have a tough time doing. Even if you decide to stay in the relationship, you need to be very strong for yourself and everyone else in your family. But the likelihood of your husband changing is small.
To answer your question I handle the finances as well. I have tried to get him to be more active in household chores but nothing.
Well I had my first therapy session and went home to talk to him about it. He responded with I told you so. The problem was mine. I appreciate everyone’s advice but I’m not sure what else I can do.
Your comment about your husband telling you, "See, it’s all your fault," brought up a memory. I have several women who work with me that have faced similar struggles because they were unequally yoked. One dear friend talks about feeling so low and asking herself again and again how she could be such a bad partner while driving around aimlessly one rainy night. She had been told so many times that their problems were all her fault, that she just needed to be more supportive and loving and patient. She often heard the jab that she needed to be more Christian and kind in their relationship. She heard it so often that that night she briefly accepted it as a truth and felt worthless and dejected. Something shook her that night though, and she saw those feelings for the lie that they were.
Sometimes courage and nobility are best expressed in the human spirit by the battles against and the victories over the heavy heart and dejected spirit. No matter what you decide, I hope you feel the absolute gift that you are to your children and family. I hope that you can find meaning and peace within your struggles to be a good mother and provider for your family, and guidance from a loving God.
Thank you! The last few years have definitely been a struggle. I really appreciate everyone’s advice. I have done a lot of praying and focusing on self esteem this year. I was hoping therapy would be a step in the right direction
Bashfangel16: I can empathize.
A few observations:
Your husband must know this is primarily his fault. If he REALLY thought this is mostly your fault, he would jump at the chance to go to counseling with you so the counselor could set you straight.
A friend who is going to marriage counseling alone warned me that some study shows that marriages where one spouse goes to counseling alone is more likely to end up divorced than if you didn't go at all. The explanation is that when you go alone, you are the patient, not the marriage. The counselor will tend to do what is best for you, not necessarily what is best for the marriage.
That is a factor no doubt, but I am skeptical. I'm thinking that a bigger factor is that if you have a marriage where one thinks there is a need for counseling and the other doesn't care enough to go with you, the marriage is in more serious trouble than where the unhappy person is not unhappy enough to get help. Just passing that along.
My friend made it clear to the counselor that at this point divorce is not an option. If she wants to leave, she doesn't need a counselor to do that. So his job is to help her with her marriage, period.
You do have some power over the situation. You are the primary bread winner. You can set boundaries and apply a little tough love if necessary. Like open your own bank account, deposit your paycheck there. Give him enough money to feed the children but not buy video games. As you set boundaries, he will either come around and work with you on having a better marriage, or leave. If he leaves, you are free to remarry (as I understand scripture. See 1 Cor 7:10). But it probably won't come to that. If he didn't have you he would have to, horror of horrors, get a job.
Do you have a few close friends who can advise you, and also provide emotional support and comfort? A professional is good, but a friend knows you better, and there is safety in the counsel of many. This includes friends of the opposite sex. Of course, be extra-diligent if he is single or is also having marriage problems.
Finally, a book recommendation. Harriet Lerner's The Dance of Anger.
Praying for you.
Thank you. Most of my close friends believe I should take the kids and leave.
I wanted to give everyone an update. We discussed our issues and what not. He took responsibility for not understanding. He and I quote “I am a stupid guy” I didn’t know. Therapist was very open to help. While sitting there I realized I have out grown the relationship. Thank you for all the help.
It at least sounds like a good thing that he's taking responsibility for something!
But I feel like I should ask, if you're willing to answer, what situation does that leave? Are you taking steps together to rebuild what is broken, or are you considering a different path? Remember that any situation can have true hope as long as Christ is invited into it! He's more powerful than any obstacle you might be faced with. Fervently seek his Word for guidance in whatever you do.
My sister in Christ, I'm praying for you and the whole situation, whatever God may have planned! 🙂
My darling Angel,
I'm nearing 70 and have struggled in my relationship with The Lord often over the years. I've settled down in His embrace now after decades of striving and often failing.
Something I picked up along the way was this sound and wise advice…
If I knew what The Lord wanted me to do and I flatly didn't want to obey Him, just couldn't make myself do so, I would say to Him that *I was willing to be made willing*.
God in His mercy would lovingly touch me, and my heart and will would be turned without my even being aware of His wondrous work within me. Such is His love for us!
Go well on the path that He has laid down for you since the beginning sweetie…..
Cuddlles xxxx
Thank you
Unfortunately our issues are deeper than I thought.
I have been out of the country and off the grid for a month. Bashfangel16, if you are still following, it sounds like you had a period of discovery and, based on your new awareness, made choices to move forward. I hope you are able to shake off the shackles and fly. So many people let a bad relationship define them, either with bitterness or lingering regrets, looking behind instead of forward. Hopefully you will define yourself as a wonderful woman who loves God, her family, her friends and herself. Bless you.
Thank you. I am still working through the abuse I didn’t know I was experienced it. The lord and therapy have done wonders.