Manosphere Question
Good day, MHers.
I want to ask if you think that recent online groups such as the red pill movement, Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), etc. (a.k.a. the manosphere) help or hurt men and marriage? How do their views compare to traditional Christian values and gender roles?
The short answer is: avoid them like the plague.
I would say they hurt both men and women, and ignore Christian teaching on marriage. The self-sacrificial role of men in the marital relationship (eph 5:25-33) is completely neglected in their teaching
The men of the MGTOW movement are actually against marriage; those men have had very bad experiences with women, and have become embittered far beyond what is acceptable in New Testament Christianity. While it's fine to be single in and of itself — Paul said singles (both men and women) actually have certain advantages over married couples in Scripture — it's not good to be single for reasons of complete bitterness. Whatever bad experiences men and women may have had with each other, hating the other sex isn't consistent with the attitude Christians are supposed to have toward others. If we are to love even our enemies, how can MGTOW (or radical feminists, for that matter) justify their toxic attitudes toward the opposite sex?
Traditional values and roles don't necessarily have a directly comparable relation to these movements, though very authoritarian expectations and attitudes sometimes found in the traditionalist communities may sometimes contribute to the unrealistic expectations people in the MGTOW/radical feminist movements have of the opposite sex.
My husband has compiled a list of principles he wants our son to live by. The thing he is most adamant about is that our son never finds himself in the incel or MGTOW communities. Since he will be surrounded in a loving home and by a family where men and women have stable relations, our son thankfully will be theoretically far less prone to ever developing such a mindset than men who have been raised in more authoritarian, radical feminist, or otherwise relationally chaotic homes have.
I think it's a reactive thing, based on some of the more extreme measures of feminism. How one answers this question definitely depends on if there is a complimentary or egalitarian approach to marriage. However, for what it's worth, I would say the less any gender pushes for it's own freedom in marriage and instead surrenders to the oath they've taken, the better.
First, I want to say that women who believe in traditional feminity, gender expectations, and those who generally espouse the values of this site are not what the MGTOW/red pill movement are against/complain about and not what I will be talking about.
Not to get too political but the essential premise of the MGTOW/red pill movement is that modern society: with the hookup culture, divorce laws, and modern feminisms narrative of male oppression over women, produce women who make poor long term partners. Their take is why bother being in a relationship when there is a greater than 50 percent chance that it will end up with a major fleecing of assets and the inability to see your children. They do not preach celibacy. They definitely are about having fun, but being that most women (especially those with liberal college backgrounds) will be poor spouses, their mentality is, "Why bother going further and getting into a relationship?"
Now an element of MGTOW is about making yourself into the best man possible: generally, physically and financially, though they do mean spiritually and mentally, but these are harder YouTube topics to make videos of.
Some in the manosphere (red pill content creators) do believe you can find a quality woman, just be ready for a lot of searching, having high filters and standards, and/or being able to deprogram modern feminism in your woman.
They are not denying that modern society has created both men and women of poor relationship quality, but for traditional men—good quality men—there are a negligible amount of women.
Finally, I think it would benefit unmarried MH men to watch some MGTOW videos to be aware of certain things but not too much as it does have a jading and disillusioning effect.
For MH women, just watch Rebecca Barrett to understand what kind of women I’m/the red pill community talk about.
To reiterate, lovely ladies of the MarriageHeat community, you are unicorns, diamonds in the rough, etc. and NOT what is talked about in most MGTOW content. If more women were like you, there wouldn’t be a need for the MGTOW movement.
"Some in the manosphere (red pill content creators) do believe you can find a quality woman, just be ready for a lot of searching, having high filters and standards, and/or being able to deprogram modern feminism in your woman."
Boy. Does that ever sound like lots of fun. How about setting your standards as follows: if I can make her laugh at me, and if I can laugh at her, and if we can keep doing so without much prompting, then it's worth trying for a relationship. But if you two talk past each other–e.g. you read auto racing magazines and she's been subscribed to Modern Bride magazine for two years, then there might be a problem.
Note on the above: the above couple might make everything work if they recognize each other as a dignified human being.
I think this is the gist of the problem: "They definitely are about having fun, but being that most women (especially those with liberal college backgrounds) will be poor spouses, their mentality is, 'Why bother going further and getting into a relationship?'"
Yes, they are jaded by modern culture. But they also have a twisted view of what makes a "poor spouse". They value a woman not on her personality (unless it is a measure of her subservience) but on her physical appearance, sexual appeal, the number of other men who desire her (without actually "getting" her; that would lower her "value.") It seems to be (almost?) entirely focused on multiple sexual conquests, not a Christian value.
They also have a perturbed sense of their own worth. It isn't based on God's love for them, Christ's sacrifice for them, or their work in the kingdom. I admire the impulse for self-improvement, but it seems to be focused on physical fitness and money, not mental, emotional, or least of all, spiritual growth. I understand that these might get less internet "traffic," but to ignore them completely is to starve half of who you are.
There is a paper out of Tilberg University and Kings College called Digital Hermeneutics and Media Literacy:
Scaled Readings of The Red Pill published April of 2020 that I found interesting. And a website (not Christian, but helpful) called The Good Men Project that has a post called "I Took the Red Pill. Why Am I Still Not Happy?"
I don't think it's a bad idea to find out what other people think, but in this day and age of "information targeting" using algorithms based on what you've searched for before, it might be a good idea to actively search for content that contradicts whatever you are being fed. It can help combat confirmation bias where you only see the ideas of a small percentage of (not very happy) people.
Interesting question.
I have never heard of these terms and it would have been helpful to summarize what each believes. I am not going to look them up on Google for fear of what said searches could produce in the way of ads, etc. Just a missed opportunity, I think.
I decided to look them up in private search. Gross. Any men who subscribe to those things are pigs.
@NuttyMonkey: While I wholly subscribe to feminity, I don't think gender roles among the Manosphere community are "traditional" within Biblical Christianity at all. The only part of the traditional roles they seem to see as relevant is the subservience of the female to the male. But the scriptures call husbands and wives to "submit to one another." The "traditions" the movement refers to don't tend to include love, service, respect for others, or even fidelity within marriage, should one find a woman "worthy" of him.
Some who have left the movement call it cult-like, but I will just say that its proponents use the same propaganda techniques that all media use to create a perceived need—to create buy-in and develop a following: find the point of pain and dig your thumb into it, then offer a way out, but not one that works or you lose a follower. It's the equivalent to women's magazines that sell you the latest diet then offer you a recipe for luscious brownies—with a sprinkle of violence and hatred on top. If you follow the guidelines of the manosphere, you are going to stay single and lonely, perfect fodder for more of their rhetoric.
@Single guys: just be a decent person. Like people, serve others, make friends, do things that make you feel good about who you are. You don't need to impress other guys with your body count to have value. If you truly love and value others, you will attract good people. If you are strong in your convictions and in who you are in God's eyes, you don't need the external validation of women falling all over you. You just need one woman who will love you back and give herself freely to you within marriage. So, cast your net as wide as you can in this Covid-restricted world and get to know a few as *whole people* before you start looking between their legs.
No, it won't get you laid, but it may help you find the love of your life. And it will certainly set you apart from the crowd of 20- and 30-somethings on the prowl.
Thank you all for the comments. It is really open my eyes.
CHL said: "While I wholly subscribe to feminity, I don't think gender roles among the Manosphere community are "traditional" within Biblical Christianity at all. The only part of the traditional roles they seem to see as relevant is the subservience of the female to the male. But the scriptures call husbands and wives to "submit to one another." The "traditions" the movement refers to don't tend to include love, service, respect for others, or even fidelity within marriage, should one find a woman "worthy" of him."
I agree. I must say that I love femininity and find feminine women hot, but I also admire women who like sports and traditionally guy stuff as well.
I try not to judge others. I just hope they find happiness. Plus I have no idea what these people do or believe in. I believe in a modernized interpretation of the Bible that allows us to find what is right for us. If there is no one being harmed, go for it. We need to look at the real world and understand people vary. They may need a very different lifestyle.
Completely antithetical to Christian manhood IMO and that of my husband.