Inward Desires
Hi all!
My name is John and I am new here—well, newly signed up, but I have been reading some articles for a while now. I actually came here to discuss sexuality with fellow believers, as I have had many thoughts and questions, but no real outlet for those things.
It is my hope that I can engage in meaningful discussion and hopefully learn from others and share my own views.
What I’d like to chat about today is the inward desires we all have. Or any inward thoughts that we keep to ourselves that we’re too scared to talk about.
I’m talking about things that are not permitted for us Christians to partake in, yet still turn us on when we think about them. Maybe we get off to those thoughts, or even read erotica or watch porn about them.
I’m talking about things like orgies, homosexual sex, exhibitionism perhaps—I think you get the picture. I’m not trying to glorify any of these acts, please don’t misunderstand me. But I will be the first to admit that some things forbidden for us believers do turn me on, and I have orgasmed to those things. I’ve gone through the guilt and shame every time, but never had an outlet for talking about it.
I think it’s worth talking about. There must be a psychology around why we’re turned on by these things.
If anyone is interested in such a discussion, please reply with your innermost desires and how you’ve coped with the fantasies and any possible feelings of guilt or shame.
Kindest regards,
John
John, thanks for your post.
I understand some of your struggles. I am a former porn addict, and by God's grace I am now free from it. I will however, admit to something, and I am being very transparent here because I know the MH family is not quick to judge.
Even though I've stopped viewing porn, there are a few times when I've viewed videos of men solo masturbating to ejaculation. In no way am I a homosexual and I would never touch another man sexually, in fact the thought turns me off completely. I think the reason for my arousal when watching other men masturbate is perhaps just a fantasy of it being me. I know, it sounds strange because I can and do pleasure myself. I'm sure there is some deeper emotions involved here which I can't really understand.
I've struggled with whether or not it is a sin to watch these videos, and I've decided in the interest of caution, I would stop. And I have.
Thanks for allowing me to share a few thoughts.
Hi Steady89,
I’ve been straight my whole life, I’ve never watched an actual video of a man masturbating (I have seen it in real life but that’s another story), but I did sometimes look up pictures of both non-aroused and aroused nude men. I think for me, to compare myself and see that I wasn’t small or unusual but within the range of what’s out there felt reassuring. I didn’t want to have sex with men, but doing that felt good from time to time. I don’t do that now and haven’t since my 20s, but I just thought I’d share that.
Thanks for your reply. I think maybe a lot of it for me is a comparison as well.
Hi John! I’m NorthernSky, I also go by John as my given name when I mention myself in my stories here (pending posting). My real name is something similar, so it’s sort of a screen name.
Thanks for this great question starter! I too am a Christian (a Calvinist Baptist of the Sam Storms variety).
I’ll try to go down the list of things you mentioned.
Erotica: yes I obviously read erotica, and write it as well. I don’t feel that there’s anything shameful in erotica in and of itself, Song of Songs is highly erotic. However, I no longer visit secular erotica websites, as the stories there usually involve a lot of sinful activities, and the characters are often difficult to believe (women are all thin AND busty, men are all chiseled AND extremely well-endowed). I feel that MH stories are not only more wholesome, but the writing is more believable as well.
Porn: I looked at a lot of softcore porn pictures growing up, but didn’t really get much into video porn. I personally think porn is a sinful and harmful industry in general, but I know not everyone on here agrees with me.
Orgies: they happened at my university scene, but I never went to any or got involved in them. I am quite reserved and shy, so being touched sexually by multiple random strangers just never seemed that tempting to me.
Homosexuality: as a preteen, I had an older (male) friend who began removing my clothing once when we were alone. Fortunately someone I knew walked in and put an end to anything that would have happened. I didn’t like the feeling of that, and maybe that helped me be disinterested in having sex with another male. I did get a lot of attention in my teens and twenties from gay peers (people sometimes thought I was gay because I was kind of “pretty” and I have a bit of a high voice). It was flattering but I never reciprocated. I had a few “wet dreams” about men, but they kind of made me feel uncomfortable. I mostly dreamed about women.
Exhibitionism: I am highly aroused by exhibitionism. Not by randomly flashing passersby as that seems rather gross. I’ve been flashed as a security guard and it didn’t arouse me. However the thought of exposing and masturbating with other adults who mutually agree to do the same is extremely arousing to me (I wrote a post about that fantasy called “An Exhibition Fantasy and Discussion” — mods, would it be possible to link it so John-John can read it?) [From MH: Here's the post link! https://marriageheat.com/2024/12/15/an-exhibition-fantasy-and-discussion/ For future reference, it's fine to post links to other MH posts and pages. It's only links to outside sites that we restrict.]
As for intentionally orgasming to something I am ashamed of:
I’ve made a post that is pending review, so I won’t go into too much detail, but my wife once shared with me an embarrassing situation from her Freshman year, involving being at a house with some jealous girls she knew who threatened to beat her up and forcibly strip off her clothing so they could see her notoriously large breasts that were attracting all the boys’ attention (they aren’t the biggest in the world, but they are porn-level in size, and her areolas are tied for the biggest I’ve ever seen including in softcore porn). She was scared of what they might do, so she did it herself. I would consider what happened to be a form of sexual harassment. But her confidence even though she was pressured into it is thrilling to me, and the thought of the jealousy mixed with impressed expressions on the onlookers’ faces, that she wasn’t fake like had been suggested, and had actually bared all in front of the other girls, drives me crazy. She earned their respect that day and that was the end of that. I have never told her but I’ve orgasmed many times to thoughts of that, but I feel shame because she said that experience felt violating and embarrassing (as hazing type situations usually do). I’d like to think I am aroused by her confidence and bravery, not that she was threatened and pressured. But I still know it’s wrong to be aroused by a true story like that.
Like most people I have interests in things that are forbidden and like most I struggle to understand their origins and those desires. Why certain fantasies, fetishes and kinks are pervasive I think is the result of how much we entertain them. I have a fantasy about a threesome for example and while my wife and I are fiercely loyal to one another, and we’d never invite another person into our bed, it is a common sexual interest to me.
We have talked about it; I’ve masturbated thinking about it, and we’ve talked about it while she is getting me off, even to the point of role-playing. She has an orgy fantasy and at times I will use a dildo on her while she sucks my cock to tap into that fantasy. Talking about these things has given us a better understanding of what makes the other “tick” sexually.
This understanding of one another’s fantasies has certainly given me sexual pleasure, but our vows also put strict limits on those pleasures, so they will forever be played out between our ears. Forbidden desires can be sexy, but there is a reason we call them forbidden. How pervasive these thoughts are or how much they preoccupy us has a lot to do with our ability to contain them. Getting off on them especially solo can have a detrimental effect if those fantasies aren’t shared between partners.
We’ve been married and monogamous for 40 years, so to us, it’s occasional fun and a way to express what sometimes goes on in our heads. We also practice fetishes and kinks that exist comfortable in the confines of marriage, bondage, domination, and anal pleasure are a few. We also practice the nudist lifestyle with others which is more an expression of freedom than sex but still, something that is seen as forbidden. Each of these things enhance our sex but as long as we see monogamy and loyalty as our foundation, the occasional forbidden fantasy remains what it should be, a fantasy.
I have never really struggled with too much other than softcore pornography. Maybe the sight of two women in a video is erotic to me but I never sought at threesomes or want to see my wife doing that. I get grossed out.
There's an attrsctive woman I know who was very attracted to men in her teen years but was so socially awkward that she never had a boyfriend. She seems to have gone lesbian because of it and she grosses me out. Sometimes when you stare the devil in the face, he loses his power.
My wife turns me on and I am glad of it. I do all kinds of filthy things to her and I love watching her cum. I love it when she comes in my face or gets super wet as I bathe her asshole with my tongue while fucking her with my fingers. It's filthy hot and I love it. She's more than enough to keep me aroused. I need nothing else. It's incredibly hot to me that I can do all these things to her and not worry about an STD, drama, or damage to the family unit.
I think we all have some things that turn us on that don’t fall within Biblical guidelines. As to how to handle them…I don’t know.
Personally, I think my own are made worse by the fact that I don’t have a sex life, but maybe that’s not true.
I often think this, too. Like going to the grocery on an empty stomach, you buy more. Going through life without sex, the longer it goes the more you think about it, & more variety. I notice we go without sex & I am thinking more & more pornographic as the days go by. Then, we have sex, & I don't. My thoughts turn to more bible, peace, & love with no sexual aspect at all.
While everyone comes to their own conclusion of what constitutes sin in their lives, I try to remember that
Satan is the great tempter. The Bible tells us ,( the full verse of Matthew 6: 21-23)
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,your whole body will be full of darkness.
When we dwell on something.. i.e. having a fantasy, our heart will want to lead us to what is on our mind.
I know many can say, it's only a fantasy, I'd (we'd) never do this…
My thought is that it can become a temptation. We're attracted to consider or imagine doing something we think / know / feel…is wrong or bad..because it's "forbidden fruit" Jesus was tempted by Satan, as we all are.
I pray for the Holy Spirit to bring into my awareness the things that may lead me to sin, so my actions may be pleasing to God.
If your mind is focused on something, your heart will be drawn to it as well.
Your thoughts and beliefs shape your desires and affections.
Hi John! Thanks for making this post! I’d like to share because my sexuality has been a constant source of temptation and struggle and sin in my life.
I would first like to say I am a woman, and I identify as Bi sexual, so I have very real desires when it comes to the same sex. Although i identify as Bi and do have these desires (I frequently dream about being with a woman as well) I have committed myself to living a Christian lifestyle.
MH has actually helped me direct my sexual energy into more appropriate places, and focus it on my husband through writing of our experiences and thinking about married experiences rather than those I know I should not have.
I have many intense sexual fantasies involving everything from exhibitionism to same sex partners, to including others in the bedroom, and more that would not be appropriate to act out. My husband and I communicate about these desires openly but agree we would not act on them and acting on such things would cause more problems than it would solve.
I used to live in sexual sin and be sexting multiple guys online at any given time before I was truly saved because of my raging desires and sexual fantasies, and having done that I can truly tell you that it caused me so many more problems than it ever helped me with.
I mean to say that I really would go from one guy to the next. I don’t remember their names or how many I sexted, or sent pictures to. It had to be well over 50 different people in the end.
I share this in order to be able to tell you that from someone who has lived it, it was never worth it. I am of course ashamed of how I was living now, but more than that, you won’t fill your desire this way and it will leave you feeling more hollow than you ever have.
I have come to understand that sexual temptation is a beast that will never be quenched by giving in, and underneath that desire for unhealthy sex is an internal desire for a healthy God designed relationship.
By focusing my sexual energy away from dangerous unhealthy outlets and into my current healthy relationship I have become more satisfied than I ever was before. Thoughts and temptations do pop up but I see them for what they are now and redirect my thoughts to reflect a more healthy sexuality! I hope this helps!
I tend to see this as God's solution. I can often despair over why I think what I do. I wonder where is my miracle. But, after years of never getting my miracle I am left to think through God's Word & apply Truth to me. In the grand scheme of things very few people got a miracle, in the bible. I learn it's not what God does for me, it's what I do for Him. Not to save myself, but to obey. Satan wants nothing more than to weaken us with doubt. But, I believe. I think. I apply. It's a long life, sanctification. Believing against doubt is the only solution I have found. Today, I'm not where I want to be, but I am more of a believer in Jesus. That's Bible. God doesn't take away our memory or this evil world, but wants us to be strong applying His Word in it.
I struggle with a threesome fantasy of sharing my wife with another man. It is a fantasy we both get aroused from when we talk about it while having sex. Sloppy seconds and spit roasting scenarios get us going for sure. We both agree while a hot fantasy that is all it will be due to our beliefs. I feel guilt that it arouses me so much and struggle with it. Not sure why I like it or where it came from, probably porn viewing when I was younger.
Threesomes started as his fantasy and quickly became mine as well. First I am certain no fantasy is wrong to use to improve yourself life. Second there is no unanimous agreement on what God truly forbids for our current generation. There are dangers in fantasies that include others but none so strong to harm a healthy marriage if both partners want to explore them. Does the idea of another person joining us in bed and increasing our pleasure tempt me? Of course. I think that the reason for restrictions against actually doing it are far more complicated than just declaring it sinful. Soft swaps for example would be difficult to build a biblical case against. Two women doing anything again no true biblical proof it’s a sin. Great topic and we will continue to greatly enjoy our fantasy life with zero guilt and certainty that it is not wrong.
@SecondMarge “Two women … no true Biblical proof it’s a sin”.
Curious how you reconcile Romans 1 with that???
I know we’re all imperfect people. I know many in the Church struggle with same-sex attraction. I don’t have anything against such people, I only cringe when people try to justify it or any other sin… I have struggled with many sins as a Christian … If I justified my own struggles as okay by God, and not in need of his mercy and redemption, it would seem that’s a bigger problem than just the sin itself. 🤷🏻♂️
"there is no unanimous agreement on what God truly forbids for our current generation"
Sorry, Marge, I respect your view, but cannot agree. Christianity has a problem with unity. Being unanimous isn't a human consensus. We have to unanimously agree with God. I get your point that the church does not do this, but we all have the Word, in Bible form. It is not whether you or I agree, it is you & I submitting to God. Things may be allowed, but not all things are good for us. I, personally, do not have the same convictions as my wife. Yet, my struggle is drawn where she would be offended. Jesus paid a tax so not to offend. I find many things I used to regret & wring my hands over I do not, anymore. Yet, where God is explicitly for or against I unite with Him. Within that, He says to be about others interests. If you & your husband agree as you say, on things where Bible gives liberty, go enjoy & have fun. But, there is a list of Do Not Do's that ALL believers MUST adhere to. No, not perfection, that's not what I mean. We miss the mark in these bodies. That never changes, til judgement day. Yet, God's Word of forgiveness & sanctification says God is working to change us. So, stop sinning, & hold on to Him if you do.
In my attempt to avoid another argument, they are called beliefs because no one truly knows God’s intentions and how well men wrote about them. If they were clear and definitive and not time sensitive beliefs would not differ enough to form hundreds of religions based on the Bible or very different acceptance of sexual behavior.
@SecondMarge
Thanks for clarifying your views. It would seem that our basic beliefs about the authority of Scripture are quite different. As I don’t see any way we could come to the most basic of agreements, I will drop the matter.
Marge, what you speak of is human, not God.
1 Corinthians 14:33 (ESV)
"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,"
To dismiss God's Word as "they are called beliefs because no one truly knows God’s intentions and how well men wrote about them," is not how God describes Himself or His Word. It is not known, nor given to us, as beliefs, faiths, or unknown, not knowable words. In fact Christ came making mysteries known.
Where people divided God simply waits for our repentance. Salvation is God's Word. Jesus. His Son. Not all religions do, or go, the same path. Not all christian sects are the same. But, our Bible, basically is still the same Word written from the beginning.
It is "clear and definitive" and it is "not time sensitive beliefs."
God's Word proves true. But, only to the student of it. It takes a sold out patience, to sit at the feet of Jesus, & listen & learn. Jesus, not a book about Jesus. Not a preacher on Jesus, but Jesus & no other. That is what we call thee FAITH.
Fantasies can be both a healthy outlet and an unhealthy distraction/obsession. I think there's a lot of gray between those, and everyone needs to figure out how to manage their particular ones.
Yes, there's definitely a psychology behind fantasies. I'm no expert, but I know fantasies are often traced to early, not necessarily sexual, formative experiences when we were young. Look up Jay Stringer, a Christian psychologist who writes about this. They're also shaped by our lives now, often in contrast or to fill a gap we are feeling. Look at the powerful men who seek out a dominatrix to humiliate them, or men who feel downtrodden by other men and compensate by fantasizing about having lots of power over women.
So fantasies can be a healthy outlet for packaging and processing our inner thoughts ,a little like dreams. But they can get out of hand if they become obsessive or tempt us into inappropriate real-life behavior.
As well, some people don't seem to sexually fantasize at all (though generally not the people that visit a place like Marriage Heat). That can create a lot of conflict between spouses when one does occasionally fantasize but the other doesn't and can feel threatened and confused. I think that's one of the biggest problems but it's often overlooked.
Welcome! Great questions. I think that for me, actions are what matters. The Bible (and Jesus) never condemn fantasies and desires. Actions are what matter. Even “lust” is never just a thought… but devising an action plan. So I think it’s ok to have “forbidden” fantasies and thoughts, and those things don’t need to develop into real actions. So for me, it’s not a “struggle” to have these thoughts. They are a part of my normal Christian life.
@Fearless Lunk
I know this topic has been debated many times on MH, so I don't want to get into the weeds on it. But I am curious about one thing. I've seen a lot of people on MH subscribe to this interpretation of lust, that it requires a plan to act, and I really don't know where that idea comes from. That's not how I understand the relevant scripture at all. And of course, just because it's my interpretation that doesn't mean it's the right one, but I like to have reasons for why I believe what I believe, and I haven't found a solid scriptural reason to believe that the sin of lust requires an intent to physically act out an illicit desire.
The way that Matthew 5:27-28 is worded, it seems like the intent is not to act, but to desire.
I normally like the ESV, but it seems to be the odd one out in using the phrase "lustful intent," which can be difficult to interpret. Does that mean intent to desire, or intent to act? Maybe that's where the "plan/intent to act" viewpoint comes from? (For reference, Matthew 5:28 from the ESV translation: "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.")
A few other popular translations give us Matthew 5:28 this way (my own emphasis of relevant phrases added in CAPITALS):
ASV: "but I say unto you, that every one that LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
KJV: "But I say unto you, That whosoever LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
NKJV: "But I say to you that whoever LOOKS AT A WOMAN TO LUST FOR HER has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
NIV: "But I tell you that anyone who LOOKS AT A WOMAN LUSTFULLY has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
NASB-1995: "but I say to you that everyone who LOOKS AT A WOMAN WITH LUST FOR HER has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Young's Literal Translation, which does its best to preserve the exact grammar, puts it this way: "but I—I say to you, that every one who is LOOKING ON A WOMAN TO DESIRE HER, did already commit adultery with her in his heart."
So again, the focus of the passage seems to be that purposefully and intentionally entertaining an illegitimate desire is itself sin, independent of a physical act or a plan to act. This makes sense with the context of the rest of scripture, where it's clear that God cares just as much about the state of our hearts as he does about our actions. The whole focus of this section in Matthew is on sins that fall short of physical action. Anger, even if not expressed physically, is akin to murder. Lust (intentional illicit desire), even if not expressed physically, is akin to adultery. Adding the requirement that there actually be a plan or intent to physically act out an illicit desire misses the point of this passage, and sounds a lot like a rationalization of sinful thoughts to me. (To be clear, I do not believe that simply recognizing someone's physical attractiveness is sinful.)
Am I missing something? I don't want to dismiss a viewpoint I don't understand without giving it due consideration, but I simply don't see the basis in scripture for the idea that "lust" definitionally requires an intent to act physically.
@PatientPassion
I appreciate your humility and good follow up Qs. It is very difficult to understand all the original intent of scripture, which was in large part ancient languages taught to ancient cultures. So this is why people like you and me wrestle with words and phrases. My preface is to repeat your words, I will share my thoughts and feelings, but it doesn’t mean I am right. I would say #1 – one shouldn’t base your conclusions solely on your understanding of English translations of scripture. #2 – Look at each “controversial” teaching in the light of the whole of scripture and the context of the moment. Given this, I believe the FACE VALUE understanding of all of scripture is that sin always involves actions. Always. In a later parable in MAT 21, Jesus teaches how the thoughts /desires of the son who says he will go and work do not matter as much as his action or inaction. Also in the context of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is teaching people that the intent of the heart (meaning the intent to act) is as though you have committed the action. Burning with anger isn’t just being grumpy or bitter. It’s literally planning your physical retaliation. Jesus was exposing the heart’s intents… not our heart’s desires. No where in scripture are thoughts or internal (only) desires deemed sinful. Even Paul’s teaching in 2 COR 10 about “taking every thought captive” implies that Christ-followers will have wild, devious, or selfish thoughts or desires, but that the way you take them captive is by submitting them to the obedience of Jesus… in other words you don’t turn those “bad” thoughts into actions. The actions are what matter. Those with thoughts – even the bad ones – are never condemned or shamed.
@FearlessLunk… I’ve heard this argument so many times before. If you really have such a low view of the translators, why not learn Biblical Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic? Seems a wiser decision than playing loose and easy with your soul and morals, just because you don’t know what the original intent was or if the translators were on point or not. […]
Lustful intent & looking to lust are the same. The point is in the word lust. It means a great desire. What, to just look, appreciate, or acknowledge? No, lust doesn't carry a good definition. It is evil. It means you are looking at her with an evil intent. To covet.
This would mean to take her & have her in a way that is against God's will. You want to sin. If you get the chance, you will do it.
It also means that you harbor an agreement that sin is your desire for that woman. This is slightly different from planning a sin. It is resolving that sexual sin with her is ok, & you would do it, even though it will never happen. You're agreeing with sin in your heart for that target woman.
A christian isn't lusting if the desire to sin with her is not there. He can even be aroused by her beauty, & as long as his heart is not holding on to sinful desires for her it is just acknowledgement, appreciation, under control.
The reason a temptation is something to flee is that it is evil desire knocking at the door wanting you to sin. Yet, temptation still has a desire to please God, on the table. Jesus was led into the wilderness TO BE tempted. If having an evil desire were a sin, Jesus sinned. Temptation is not a sin, but lust is. Jesus did not look upon the devils schemes as a willful pursuit. Jesus did not harbor an approving attitude towards what tempted Him. He held them as evil, as something never to do. Lust is different.
Lust is something you either intend to do as figuring out how to do it, or an appreciation of sin in your heart that you harbor as proper even though it will never happen. That is the intent of lust. Take the word lust out & all you have is looking, but lust is there describing the type of looking. To lust. I do not believe this is just a looking to desire her, nor acknowledging that sin could happen, & even feel good. Lust entails immorality/sin that is being desired. Desiring to covet her. A willingness to take her, steal her illegally.
It was a little difficult to think of things that turn me on that are improper for Christians, because I don't make a habit of entertaining those thoughts. And I'm grateful to have such a mindset! But after some thought, I did come up with one, which is the general theme of multiple women. That could be either two women involved in sexual acts together, or one man playing with two women at the same time. I find it arousing, but also extremely off-putting at the same time. It was honestly difficult for me to even write those couple of vague, non-explicit sentences, because I have a physical, visceral reaction to the wrongness of it.
I have some story ideas I've outlined (which I also mentioned recently on a different post) about multiple-partner fantasies, and the only way I can justify it or make it comfortable in my mind is by imagining the multiple partners as one person somehow inhabiting multiple bodies. Fantasizing about having sex with multiple people makes me feel sick more than it turns me on. And I'm glad for that, because those aren't thoughts I want to entertain. I don't want to desire anyone but my future wife, and her alone.
I agree with you PatientPassion on Matthew 5:27-28, it does state to desire and not act, the condition of our hearts is what I believe it is referring to. Sexual fantasies and desires are a complicated thing, I could see the point of view that having threesome fantasies are forbidden according to Matthew 5:27-28. My wife and our fantasies of having another man join us for a threesome are not about a specific person, like a movie star or someone we know. It is the fantasy of the act that is the turn on. Maybe it is still sinful and I understand why one would feel that way. I get it you think upon it and you may ponder doing it for real. For us though we keep it a fantasy and know it would do more damage than pleasure in reality. Maybe it is a grey area and maybe it is not right. I see your perspective for sure.
The old “lust in your heart is a sin” discussion we have covered over and over. I remain convinced thoughts are not sins. I think that anyone that is so rigidly programmed that even the thought of some fantasies makes them ill is extremely sad and very wrong in my view.
@SecondMarge
I won't argue my whole case again, because as you say, we've gone in circles already. I have a hard time refraining, but since few in this discussion appear interested in reconsidering their views, rehashing the debate won't get anywhere.
But I will clarify that my belief is more nuanced than "thoughts equal sin," and setting up that over-simplified, false-equivalency strawman only undermines your side of the issue. To be clear, I do agree that mere thoughts about acts that would be sinful are not necessarily sin—but I believe they CAN be, depending on our attitude and intent for those thoughts. I base that on Matthew 5 (not just 27-28, but the surrounding context as well), with the entire point of that section being that sins CAN happen in the heart, independent of any physical expression. That's what I believe and why. I won't go further, for sake of not devolving into argument.
As for thoughts making one ill, my take is that it's only our sinful nature that allows us to enjoy thoughts of committing evil, sexual or otherwise. If God hates sin with holy passion, overwhelming wrath and eternal judgment, how could we ever think positively of it or enjoy the thought of it? That realization should break all of our hearts, and move us eagerly await Christ's return, when sin will no longer be a temptation or a reality, and such evil will no longer come between us and God.
Consider me a sad case if you wish. If that's the price I have to pay to love what is good and hate what is evil, I'll joyfully pay it a hundredfold.
With great respect for your opinion and love for you PP, in no way was my all encompassing statement a straw man argument. We simply look at whoever wrote Matthew and why was truly hoping to accomplish. To be more specific, if any fantasy includes someone other than a spouse or in addition to a spouse as in swinging or threesomes it is not adultery nor a singful. That is not just because the heart only pumps blood so it can not be sinful. Those thoughts can not be sins any more than enjoying a movie with a bank robbery or killing can make one a criminal. There are acts that upset me too, however, not likely to make me physically ill. Maybe you are more sensitive or devout. In either case I can not see that unpleasant experience is a beneficial one so I feel sad for the pain they bring one.
You are right it has been covered over and over. Thank you SecondMarge for your perspective, it is always good to hear a different point of view, it is appreciated. I believe fantasies are ok between a husband and wife.
For me, I have to be careful what I imagine since it makes me accepting of that action.
If you watch a movie where a bank is robbed do you start wanting to rob a bank because you no longer think it’s wrong?
Gator & Marge, I believe, are the 2 sides of the MH issue on fantasy thoughts & lust. I agree with both. Because, both, here as stated, are not pursuing sin. They are not harboring the intent of sin in their heart. But, both look different as behavior.
Both David & Jesus were tempted. David saw a naked woman. That was simple acknowledgement, not sin. Then, he was tempted & entertained the sin as a satisfactory ending. So, he inquired of her. Then David lusted by sending for her. Then he did the deed.
Jesus was offered all the kingdoms of earth to rule. He acknowledged satan's offer. Not a sin. He was tempted, Jesus had a temptation to accomplish the cross without going to it. But, unlike David, Jesus did not get on board with the sin. Jesus denied the sin belief, & turned to harbor God's Word in His heart.
Sin doesn't happen til lust is embraced. Both Gator & Marge do not sound as if they are doing that. We should all have the same standard of conduct as God's Word states to all of us. Yet, where there is liberty we may have different weaknesses & strengths, stages of maturity, & experiences. This allows for liberty, as long as we are in agreement with God & do not harbor sin in our heart as the belief we should rightfully carry out.
Well stated Mister. If I see my neighbors new car and admire how attractive and efficient it is I certainly have not sinned. If I decide I really want a car like(lust) that I have not sinned. If I ask him if he would take me for a ride in his new car I have not sinned. If you ask her to borrow their car while yours is being repaired and they say yes you have not sinned. If I take away his keys and take the car home, you bet I have sinned. You only cross the line when you don’t do unto others by harming them in a way you would not want you to be harmed.
@FearlessLunk; @SecondMarge
I’m sorry I sort of came in off the top rope regarding your posts. Causing offense wasn’t my intention. I guess you should know, my heart burns for the Lord and I have often gotten overzealous about calling out sin. But I know this post is meant to be a safe space where we can discuss things that we probably wouldn’t walk up to a random person we know and share with. I do, however, think there should be a clear distinction between what we desire or struggle with, what may or may not be okay and how we can be led into the light and into the truth while still finding sexual satisfaction within a Biblical marriage. I think I’ve seen several posts that rather than admitting struggle seem to be embracing views that are sinful and justifying them. That is something I just don’t feel comfortable. Are there some gray areas regarding things like fantasy, exhibitionism, voyeurism, maybe even what some would consider soft porn, provided certain cautionary actions are taken? Maybe- probably, even. I just feel that going as far as justifying desiring or fantasizing about a real person who is not a spouse (not just admiring them for their looks), or justifying homosexuality as not against the Bible, seems a bridge too far.
Maybe I’m the odd man out. I know I’m new here, so it could be I just misjudged the general consensus views of the people on this forum.
And if so, I apologize.
—NorthernSky
I think most here agree with you. But there as many differing opinions as different Christian denominations. Just food for thought but in biblical times what would have happened to a woman in a bikini? To a woman that used birth control? To a woman divorcing and remarrying? Laws(sins) were in place for a reason, many of those reasons no longer exist.
Obviously, this topic is never going away. We all have a different take on it. So, keep brining it all back up, cause iron sharpens iron. Never let the topic die. But, God & Jesus are one on it. He means us to know we are saved from our sins, regardless of any aftermath we may go through, because of it. I do not remember a bible verse that says God erases our memory of it. Even Jesus has wounds that Thomas touched, to believe. I think that is where we all find ourselves, are we doubting like Thomas, or are we using our wounds to help convince others of Jesus' power to save. I believe even my sexual wounds, be they physical, or mental, can be become proof that Jesus loves us regardless of what we think of ourselves.
I remember feeling so scared that my years of fantasies were going to cause me to sin. They never did. I never committed adultery, nor wanted to. I still love my wife more than I did, when I said , "I do." Could my pornographic mind take me out of God's hand? No. Could I decide to leave God because of it, yes. But, that is my choice to believe. Believe it, or God.
Faith is like lust. You can tell me what you believe, but you cannot tell me what your faith is. Because, faith is movement toward something. You show me what you have faith in. A house built on the rock stands the storms of doubt that come. Don't let yourself believe your fantasies. In other words, don't fear them. Fear God, believe God. Hold evil as evil, & good as good. If you don't fear something you are stronger than it. That's what an equipped disciple is.