Maybe We’ve Been Wrong – Female PIV Pleasure
In my varied reading, I came across two sources that both stated something interesting. Now, neither of these sources were Christian, but if the data was true, then I think it holds something quite hopeful for women.
You all may remember that I asked for your thoughts way back in one of my early posts about orgasming from penetrative sex. From what I’d read as far as statistics go, it seemed that most women can’t orgasm from PIV sex alone and need some other stimulation, usually clitoral. But so many stories, both on Marriage Heat and other forums, especially romance novels, cast women as thrashing with pleasure just from being pounded. Add to that seeming contradiction the experience I’ve had in my journey of self-exploration, in which I’m sensing more and more a magnitudinous pleasure just from using my dildo.
(I’ll throw in a quick spicy scene here about one of the last times I masturbated.
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I was on my knees, leaning back on my palms, and slowly sliding up and down the slippery cock. Oh my goodness, it felt SO incredible! The head was rubbing against this spot along the front wall of my pussy—I assume the G-spot—and I rode that thing luxuriously for a little while without even touching my clit. I thought I might even orgasm just from that. After a bit, the sensation wasn’t as strong and I moved to lying on my back. I resumed pumping myself hard with the dildo and started rubbing my clit furiously. That almost always guarantees a convulsive orgasm. My inner muscles clench so hard I feel like I’ll squirt. From the wetness leaking out of me afterwards, maybe I do to some degree. I had one of those amazing orgasms, and after cumming I just lay there, breathing deeply and smiling to myself, imagining that the juice oozing out of me was my future husband’s cum.
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Whew, I think I need some self-care after I finish writing . . .
Anyhow, the question about this had returned to my ever-inquisitive-about-sex brain, and then I read these two articles.
The first was a newsletter from one of the online sex toy stores I had visited before. (Now, of course, they’re filling my inbox with ads and deals for toys I can’t afford, lol.) The topic was the orgasm gap between men and women and the reasons for it. According to some stats the showed, many women in heterosexual relationships don’t orgasm as often as men; some rarely or never do; however, women in lesbian relationships orgasm way more, close to the percentage men do. Huh!
So their claim was that it’s not that women can’t orgasm at a frequency similar to men, but that many men don’t give them a chance to orgasm. (The article was a little bit feminist in this respect, blaming men and “the patriarchy” for not learning about women’s bodies, but they ended on a positive note, encouraging couples to learn about each other and explore more.)
The capability is there. But because of a long history of society not really understanding women’s sexuality (I will have to say that I think that’s true), your average guy doesn’t really know how to turn a woman on and make sex, including penetration, enjoyable. I of course will make an exception for the gentlemen here on MH; you all sound like wonderful husbands or husbands-in-preparation who want to “live with your wives with understanding” (1 Peter 3:7). That means so much to us ladies. As a side note, I’m doing all I can now to practice that mindset myself, so I have as much knowledge and info about men as possible for if I ever become a wife. It does go both ways!
Article Number 2 was actually not an article; it was a Reddit thread by and for men who practice the “bull” lifestyle.
[Editor’s note for readers: In this context, a “bull” lifestyle refers to a man who has sex with a married or otherwise partnered woman with consent from her and her partner.]
(Yeah, Reddit has a lot of crazy rabbit holes and I stumble over some interesting stuff). Not that I condone that at all, though it makes for hot fantasies. But it was very eye-opening to read the discussions or Q&As. I must admit, most of the men on there were respectful guys with boundaries and ethics (well, as much as they could be while entering the marriage bed of various couples and having sex with the wife).
Anyhow, there was a question about how often women orgasmed from PIV sex only, and several of the bulls said that EVERY TIME they had sex with some hotwife, she orgasmed. They stressed things like taking their time, getting the woman wet, using fingers and mouth first, and then locating the G-spot. They even remarked that some of the wives had never orgasmed before, and called out the husbands for being losers and not pleasuring their wives. It was quite fascinating.
Again, I’m not promoting this lifestyle or suggesting that unsatisfied wives go find a bull. Rather, I’m hoping that this will help husbands BE the bull! Because again, the ability to orgasm is there, hiding in every woman.
I was really encouraged by this information because I used to worry about not being able to orgasm from PIV sex if I ever get married. The more I experiment with the dildo, the more I think I can. At least, I feel closer to it. It is actually enjoyable to have something penetrate me, and a few times recently, it’s been really awesome.
Ladies, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. It’s just taken science and medicine and society a while to discover some of the sexual aspects! I hope this was an encouraging read.
Bulls, for the most part, also have massive cocks which probably helps in PIV sex. And the whole “new person/new (huge) cock” excitement most likely assists in the Hotwife being able to orgasm.
When my wife and I first started having sex, she would orgasm every session. Most, if not all the time, it would be from her grinding while riding me. It was an incredible sight to behold and was also a huge confidence boost to myself.
Now after a couple kids and 7 years of marriage, she uses a clitoral sucker with me on top and is able to orgasm frequently. So maybe before kids, the clitoris was stimulated from the grinding action leading to orgasm.
Now…I have a scientific background and I think it would be beneficial to take into account different scenarios, relationship styles, bedroom actions from husbands and/or bulls, etc. for women being able to orgasm from PIV sex alone. Maybe we could all find the secret to our wives having explosive orgasms!
Maybe we should do a poll on here?
Everyone is different. Typically it is difficult to orgasm from penetrative sex only, but it is possible. For me it requires a LOT of foreplay and an orgasm from oral, then a position – usually missionary – where Tom can make contact with my clit (CAT technique). With a rabbit vibrator, I can get that “full” feeling of penetration plus clit stimulation, but it helps to be with Tom while I’m masturbating. He can suck my nipples and kiss my neck and stroke his cock while I’m coming. I like to watch this, as it plays into my fantasies. But PIV is not always necessary, and there is nothing wrong with that. Intimacy comes in many forms!
Great question LLL thanks for your post.
From my perspective as a chap;
In our marriage – the only sex I have experienced – I can happily say my wife probably has had 2-3 orgasms to my 1 on average. She comes (cums) first has always been my mantra. I would say that it is far easier and quicker for me to cum, my orgasms come easily, you might say too easily, as I have never really grasped the technique of holding back for any significant time. So foreplay, my fingers, mouth, toys are employed to pleasure her first. She takes longer and, – this is the good bit for women – her orgasms are usually bigger and longer than mine. And she gets to have more than 1 (There are few things I take pride in more than giving her that!!)
But those big orgasms are very rarely during intercourse. The chief way for the huge climax would be via oral for Mrs B.
We rarely come together, giving each other pleasure is very important to us and getting the two aligned spot on is tricky to be honest. Fair to say we did have a good combined orgasm only this morning as I fucked her doggy style but she had her little Rosey toy sucking away on her clit at the same time. Much yelling and shouting ensued 😃😃.
The orgasm you beautifully described with your dildo is, in my opinion, difficult to mimic on the real thing. I simply would not be able to last long enough for Mrs B to pound away until she has got there.
Your clit obviously plays a big part here too. If I can get the position right to grind my pelvic bone against her spot, then the chances increase, but the clit is a subtle and mysterious beauty, that I'm still thoroughly enjoying learning about, after over 30 years of very intimate study. A coarse rub of that little button just doesn't (always) cut it.
Any guy that gives an oral orgasm to their wife will know that when you get to the point of climax you do not alter the perfect little motion on her sweet spot.
We have all heard "DONT STOP DOING THAT…AHHHHH"!!! It's a beautiful moment 🙂
Trying to do that perfectly with my cock while simultaneously having my own orgasm is all but impossible. If she simply carried on after that, my eyes would be watering with the intensity of it all! We do come together sometimes and it's always pleasurable. We love that happening. But she has no problem allowing me to come in her pussy without her having an orgasm. She loves to see me come. But I always make sure she comes first.
So there is some truth that she has had a lot less orgasms during PIV (3or4 to my 1ish?). All orgasms are wonderful but not all are equal. And while we cherish PIV as a beautiful loving intimate moment we have shared countless times, imho oral is the best way (for either of us) to receive the mountaintop climaxes!
I will give our perspective. My Melody never touched herself much before marriage. On our honeymoon the first time we had PIV sex (in the early morning after our wedding night) I made sure to take my time stimulating her nipples, clitoris etc before she gifted me her virginity. Remarkably we came together. (I had been married previously.) It was her first orgasm and it’s during PIV sex with no finger on her clitoris.
For several years we had sex with lots of foreplay every time & her coming during PIV sex. Almost always came together.
But things changed. I got early onset RA so I could not rub her clitoris long enough and Melody had a neurological condition that started making things difficult. So, I bought her a vibrator.
What a game-changer for us. Some people say using a vibrator makes regular manual stimulation not work anymore. For us the vibrator made sex far easier for us both. We even eventually developed a scissors position that we call X position. In this position Melody can buzz her clit during intercourse and for many years we usually came together in our first orgasm of our sex sessions. (For a long time for many years we both had multiple orgasms in most of our lovemaking sessions.)
But a couple of years ago something changed with Melody’s body. So to reach climax she started to need oral or manual or penile nipple stimulation while buzzing her clit with one of her bullet vibrators.
Usually she needs to have had penis in pussy-pounding and my cum inside her first. Although sometimes she comes during foreplay. She’s even cum while buzzing her clit as she gave me fellatio.
By the way, so many writers on MH talk about the wife cumming during cunnilingus. For some reason receiving oral sex never makes Melody cum. But it DOES guarantee that she will have an orgasm later in the sex session.
So our sex life has evolved a lot. We enjoy what we have and still try new things. Once in a while she fails to cum and we live with it. Both of us have advanced years and many severe health issues. Yet we still find a way to keep sexually pleasing each other.
We see no problem with needing clitoral stimulation during intercourse or after intercourse for her to now reach climax. She needs a vibrator too and sometimes we use a G spot vibrator as a warm up act or post intercourse act – while she uses the bullet vibe on her clitoris.
I hope this was helpful.
It was fun having those simultaneous orgasms. But it’s now fun to cum in her pussy then orally love on her nipples and boobies for sometimes 30 seconds abd some tines 30 minutes – ‘til she cums with one of her internal body shaking earthquakes!
I'd say that the G-spot exploration is paying off! It's sad that most men don't understand or seek to understand women and their orgasms. Probably because they think they know everything already. But I can barely talk to guys about books on relationships; guys won't read them. Never trust men who don't care about women's pleasure and never trust men who don't read books.
Nice journal entry, many happy returns. 🙂
That is something I appreciate from the many comments you have posted, FM: you read books! 😃
As a comment, & in addition to what your sources say, I would make it clear that timing, arousal, & mind set plays hugely into this issue.
First, other people teaching other people about sex & orgasm has to taken with a grain of salt, because the starting point, motivation, & end result can be widely held in the eye of the source. And, may or may not have anything to do with where the reader is. Not that the info is wrong, it just may not be the info I need.
For instance, a hotwife out on the town, date, or weekend with a bull is sexually on, at play, & buzzing way before she meets up with the bull. Her arousal tank is being filled the moment she is waking into her day to go out. This happens with wives in married sex, too, but gets way more handicapped over time, with job, kids, routine, & whether the couple are getting along at the moment. A bull scenario is a no strings attached sexcapade that is hardly resembling married sex attitudes & psychology. A woman is sexually buzzing/electrified the moment the date with a bull is planned compared to seeing the husband everyday for decades. By the time she is getting ready, putting on clothes & make-up she is already wet. By the time dinner starts, or they meet at the hotel, she needs a mop (so to speak). At this point, she could cum from the lock of the door. It is a mind set, with the woman, as much as it is the ability of the man. Yes, you have dud guys that fumble around & actually don't know what they are doing. But, a pro (prostitute, porn star, bull) isn't doing a whole 'nother world of skills than the average guy can do. Yes, there are different things to learn, there are things that some do not know. But, you can only do so much. Yes, it all can't be length & girth. It is that some guys actually take sex seriously, & others are quite novice, lazy, or very selfish about it. And, I'm afraid the selfish guys may get more airtime than those that know what they are doing. Possible feminist propaganda?
Same difference, with lesbians. I would wager the typical lesbian tryst would be much more focused than the typical married hetero romp. Any married sex scene runs the potential of routine hindrances. Yet, in a lesbian marriage, or dating I gather there to be a much more intentional sex scene. That the two getting off would a major point of the play. This can fall off a little in a more routine, hectic, schedule. Whereas, orgasm, for the lesbian couple would be built in as a mutual factor of why they have sex. This is just my opinion, I have no studies to sight.
In my experience, as stereotype might share, my wife, & past dates (premarriage), has to be in the mood. If a husband has an erection, he is already in the mood & buzzing to cum. The arousal levels get mismatched easily in marriage & more routine relationships. I find my wife will orgasm the quickest the more time she has to marinade. The more her mind is into the sex groove the quicker it is for her to cum.
Sometimes she doesn't want to orgasm. Sometimes she does. But, regardless, the longer the arousal juices are flowing, the more intense the arousal is, equals a shorter time to her orgasm, whether she wanted to, or not.
My wife has never complained about her orgasm. I have never heard that she doesn't cum enough, with me. In over 30 years of marriage. Yet, I have not made her cum 100% of the time. I am glad to say that of the times orgasm wasn't need by her, she has been pleasantly surprised she had one. I would say she has cum during our sex life 98% of the time. So, yes, along with the psychology is the ability, too. But, I would say the ability is not just the man's ability. A woman gets the nod of being in the driver's seat of her orgasm ability, too. Yes, a guys can be a dope & cum premature, because of his selfishness. But, that is not her inability, that gets chalked up to impatience, inexperience, & his selfishness. Which, btw, is a symptom of pre-marital sex & inexperience. Whereas, the church has followed suit of secular sex for generations. I personally learned to pleasure women by what I learned pleasuring myself from a young age. Not, that I am anyone. Just mentioning to say anyone can learn to pleasure anyone, if they are patient & attentive.
Good post LLL. Very thought provoking, & thanks for the beautiful scene of your personal pleasuring, too.
It's actually hard for me to O via PIV unless my husband It's the right spots or my clit is hit or stimulated. The stories we share are usually when I do O because I believe it helps encourage others especially with different things. It usually takes me time to O too.
Now we are still learning but certain positions just threw me over the edge like doggy for example. It's easier for me to O than in missionary. However it doesn't always happen. Now oral and touching i always O.
Maybe I'll share when I don't O but I personally am fearful people will think something is wrong with me or think my husband is awful.
There are times I enjoy sex without an O but don't share it. Having an O isn't as important to me as the connection but to others it is. I see an O as a extra gift but not something to obsess over like I use to. I don't want to obsess over it like we've done before when I couldn't have one at all. For me just warming up is amazing.
Personally, I think it would be very encouraging to read a story about a couple enjoying sex where one or both of them don't reach orgasm. And I think a lot of other MH members would agree! MH isn't here just to show the hottest examples of married sex. Showing how wonderful and enjoyable it can be is PART of the mission. But another part is to encourage couples wherever they're at, and it could really be encouraging to certain couples to know that they're not alone in struggling to reach orgasm sometimes—especially the wives!
I think stories about enjoying each other even through certain struggles are some of the most beautiful stories. MH has been the single best resource for teaching me what normal, healthy sexuality in marriage should look like, and stories like what you describe, with difficulties reaching orgasm, help make my view MORE accurate and appreciative, not less!
If you're concerned about being misunderstood, feel free to submit a story with an extra note for the editors (including myself). I'd be happy to help you shape the story to communicate exactly what you're intending, and still make a truly lovely and inspiring scene out of an encounter where you were unable to reach climax.
Seconded, I don't think MH has to be all highlights all the time, in fact it's setting an impossible standard if in every story every woman has the best orgasm of her life.
Thank you to everyone for these insightful replies! It's a fascinating topic for sure, and one I'm continually learning about.
Thanks for your great post LLL!
My wife has only ever orgasmed from PIV, for which I’m grateful for several reasons. But while variety is nice, connection through PIV Os are so fulfilling. Keep looking forward to it in your own future marriage!
I can only speak for my wife and myself. She, let's call her Mrs. BTC, struggles to orgasm from PIV and is usually, on the edge, from PIV sex. This is why we often change up any given encounter between us, doing varying things: she has often cum if, after a good pounding, I just lie motionless with my penis in her. This gives her the exact sensation she needs to cum, and usually, she is stimulating her clit too, but not always. It also helps if I lick her nipples while lying motionless inside her and she says her nipples being pleasured feeds directly to her pussy.
She also loves being slapped on the bum in doggy style and this also makes my thrusts seem more pleasurable to her. But what I put a lot of time into is making sure she cums before I do, and often it's the small things that lead to her cumming, like licking her neck, biting her earlobes or kissing her groin area.
Hope this helps!
I know I’ve already commented but I want to add that I 100% agree with PatientPassion. MH stories are often about peak sexual experiences, but “regular” sex and overcoming sexual challenges is important to share. Also, not everyone is the same. Sometimes my wife doesn’t orgasm. It’s about once a month. But like you, she insists that she still enjoys the lovemaking and connection.
While my wife spent the first 25 years of our marriage coming almost exclusively by clitoral stimulation, the last dzon or so years we combined it with me using a 9" dildo in her pussy with me angling it to hit across her g-spot. Her orgasms are now basically full body. There is no doubt that the PIV, or DIV, orgasm is much better for her. To be clear, her clit is also being buzzed on. For the first time just this weekend she told me she came thinking about me shooting my cum on her tits and "marking her" as mine, and then asked me to straddle her afterwards, let her suck me, and then finish myself off on her. She ended up with cum from her tits to her chin. She loved it. Back to the point, that dildo across her g-spot makes her orgasm dramatically better.
LLL , words can't Express how adorable you are. When do you describe yourself in your intimate moments on mind is filled with images. And you always share the most remarkable discoveries which stimulates such wonderful conversations.
I have often mentioned Dr Rena Malik urologist and pelvic surgeon. She is a wealth of information. You can find podcasts from her all over as well as on YouTube.
If you look at porn they will push narratives that are far out of the acceptance of Christianity. One of them being a bull or breeder.
Or the BBC. Another being a cuckold that's aside from incestual sex.
The answer is don't learn from porn. Sure it can be stimulating to watch which from tome to time I do, but teaches false narratives.
Roughly 12% of women never have an orgasm during sex, AT ALL!
Studies have shown that four of five women do not orgasm from penetrative sex.
The average length of a woman's vaginal canal is 3.9 in. During arousal It changes shape and lengthens up to 2 in.
Bearing this in mind , most women do not enjoy sex with a man who is too big. ( That's not all women), but a majority will say it's painful.
A woman's clitoris is not only what you see under the clitoral hood. But it extends on the inside of the vaginal canal about two and a half to 3 in depending on the woman. Hence this is where the g-spot is found generally just inside a woman's opening and inside the pelvis where the majority of nerves are headquartered..
First and foremost any couple who is intimate needs to be exceptionally open honest and communicative about their sex. They need to say when something doesn't feel good or something does feel good. Telling your lover to stay here and keep doing that isn't rude or to lighten the pressure or make it harder. Changing positions and trying different positions or something the two of you have to be willing to try. I enjoy riding cowgirl on top of him because I can grind my clitoris into his pelvis and at the same time fill the fullness of his length inside of me..
That being said unless I'm riding in a proper way not just concentrating on grinding but riding up and down his length He's not necessarily getting the type of stimulation he needs. And that's where communication comes in. Other than this, roleplay and fantasy can help to enhance the sexual experience, as well as risq'ue sex.
And quite often this is where toys can come into play, both toys for him and for her.
Another thing to remember is the entire body is really a sexual organ. There are some massages that center on points of the feet that can bring orgasm to a woman. Some women enjoy kisses to the neck.some men enjoy nipple play, for others anal play is a plus.
Know your lover's body, talk to one another, not only before but during sex. Be vocal It enhances the experience.
Love this! Thank you for that advice! I know many of you here have said similar things through stories and discussion, but it always helps me to hear it again.
After posting My response I had read through your post again picturing your position when you were accepting the dildo. On your knees bent back in your hands sliding up and down.
This is often the way that I am when I'm riding my husband. The natural inclination of a man's correct penis is to pull up and by leaning back it increases the pressure on the inner part of the clitoral nerve center which is a few inches inside of a woman's vaginal canal.
And I could fully understand how it was that you had the enjoyment you had in that experience.
❤️
I have another point of view for why the article claims women in same sex relationships have more orgasms. Since neither have penises, they are forced to devote more time to other means of pleasing the other, e.g oral sex. Since it is well known that oral sex or at least clitoral focused sex produces more orgasms for women, it is only natural for both to experience more orgasms. Does this make sense? Plus, since both people in the relationship are women, they double their chances of responding positively to the poll.
Lesbians do use toys and strapons as well. But yes, the fact is, like the saying goes. "It takes one to know one." A women through personal experience would be more attuned to how things feel.
LLL,
Once again, your post has proven that the mind is the most important sexual organ. You really put a lot of thought into your sexual thoughts! 😉
My perception of some of the comments so far is that they have "skirted" around some key issues. One of my Ranger buddies once told me that I'm "about as subtle as a chainsaw", and so I will "say the quiet parts out loud".
I think that a lot of modern women have been conditioned by society to expect to "get something" in exchange for sex. (e.g.: a fancy new dress, the promise of an expensive vacation, or even some household chores) In other words, they think that their husband "owes" them something in exchange for sex. And, if they don't get it, then they (perhaps only subconsciously) REFUSE to have an orgasm — as a means of "punishing" their husbands for not "paying" enough for sex. (Now, that said, I don't think that very many of the women in this forum do that, because they take their Christian faith more seriously than most of society. But, the point still needs to be considered.)
Second, media imagery focuses SO much on female beauty that many women do not view their husbands as attractive in the same way that the men view their wives. Therefore, because the wife is not as turned-on by the sight of her husband, she is less inclined to have an orgasm. (Now, LLL, it is obvious that this does not apply to you! Oh, how I wish that more women were as "visual" as you.)
If you sense some bitterness in the above observations, I confess. My first wife used withholding sex as a weapon. And, she often told me that she was unable to have an orgasm from only PIV contact. She rarely "completed the equation", though, by telling me what else she needed. And, even if she did tell me, whatever worked the last time was nearly guaranteed to NOT work the next time. It was a constant guessing game, which she seemed to enjoy being in control of. (A quote from the ancient Chinese warrior-philosopher, Sun Tzu, applies at this point. "The vain man [or, in this case, woman] will burn down his own city in order to rule over the ashes.")
Because of all of the above, I often felt like less of a man because she did not achieve orgasm. For me, the release was such a burning NEED that it was impossible to imagine her not needing it. She sometimes said that she "didn't mind" not having an orgasm. But, that concept was totally foreign to me.
And, when she did finger her clit while I fucked her, that produced other problems (at least, for me). The first was that her fingernails would scrape my dick — sometimes to the point of bleeding and even leaving scars. The other was that it made me feel that I "wasn't doing it right" if my dick alone could not give her an orgasm.
It wasn't all bad, though, and we did have some memorable romps in the bedroom — and the living room, and the kitchen, and the truck…. 😉
TO47, I am so sorry your experience with your first wife was so painful. The more I hear about wives like that, the more I want to be different and absolutely bless the guy I marry! I totally agree on a woman needing to be attracted visually to her husband. I feel like I get contradictory data about women being visual; are they or aren't they? And being all in where it comes to pleasure, both giving and receiving. I can't fathom emasculating my man or forcing him to play mind games. If he (and it seems like most Christian men are) is devoted to his wife's pleasure, she should be grateful, not trying to use him and make him feel like garbage. Now, I get that some women may have past experiences or trauma that affect their view of sex. But if they do, they need to address it! It's not an excuse to make their husbands miserable.
One other thing: for you and every husband who is truly seeking his wife's pleasure, please don't feel bad if your dick alone can't bring her to orgasm. Even some women with good, healthy sex lives can't orgasm that way. My sister recently told me she is one of them. But her husband brings her to orgasm with vibrators and he takes pleasure in that. They have a great dynamic and strong love!
Once again you highlight how important self-masturbation is for developing a healthy sexuality.
The little diversion to your masturbation scene is a valuable part of the story.
Cheers LLL, God bless you for the good work you do sharing your thoughts and practise.
Sarah K
❤️
LLL, While “pumping myself hard with the dildo and started rubbing,” when your husband catches you in this fascinating and wonderful activity, you’ll soon have a naked man in the room with you.
Maybe an interesting note here: I see that lesbianism is mentioned. In Bible, we actually see no command against such actions, because sex was only seen in the context of a man in old days. Also, ancients did not have the labels such as "homosexual" back then, these are modern terms.
If you look back into many ancient cultures, many women did indeed play with each other but at the most, it was just seen as strange, not immoral, in some cultures. You may also find that this was common practice in polygamous marriages amongst sister wives. And seeing that, female sexuality is vastly different from men's, I think there may actually have been allowance for this behaviour amongst women, but this is my own personal conclusion, so do not take it as truth.
What we must remember is that for the ancients, family came first and the man usually owned the woman. If an activity did not get in the way of these things, it was usually seen as ok to do.
For example, wife and I have many fantasies of including a single woman in our fun. And while she doesn't desire women, she knows that I am turned on by lesbian play, as so she readily creates scenarios around this for my pleasure, such as typing me steamy stories on the phone while we are at work or away for business. But what is important here is that we do this for our joint pleasure.
I've heard this view before, and I disagree. The Bible declares things to be wrong in ways other than explicit "thou shalt not" commands. While the Bible's focus does seem to be more on male homosexuality than female, lesbianism IS referenced in Romans 1:26.
Romans 1:18-27 (ESV):
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . (24) Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves . . . (26) . . . God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; (27) and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
The part about men is CLEARLY talking about homosexuality ("relations", "men committing shameless acts with men"), and the two parts of the same sentence are connected by the word "likewise", meaning these are connected counterparts, and he is talking about men and women doing the same kind of thing.
Of course ancient cultures didn't use the exact word "homosexual" but that's a very weak argument. They had terms to reference the same thing that "homosexuality" means to us in the modern day, though perhaps with slightly different connotations, as all languages have. But that doesn't change the core meaning that is being discussed.
Also, saying that "sex was only seen in the context of a man in old days", even if there is truth in it, is far too much of an over-generalization. There are definitely cases in the Bible where the woman is seen as an active participant, in both positive and negative contexts (Song of Solomon 1:2-4, Proverbs 5:3-6, 7:10-23, especially 7:13 and 18).
And frankly other cultures' perspectives are almost meaningless when it comes to moral issues. We should get our morality exclusively from the Bible, not from the philosophies or traditions of any other culture. Other cultures may have valuable wisdom or insight in some cases, but if it ever contradicts Scripture, then Scripture must be what we trust above everything else. If we do not trust the Word of God above everything else, we cannot call ourselves Christians.
PP, your reading of Romans here is lacking context. This chapter is dealing with idolatry. Furthermore, if this is a law as you say, that must be inferred by some other inference, then why does it only ever occur here in very obtuse wording? Added to this would then be the contradiction in God's law concerning ordained marriages wherein polygamy is allowed. If polygamy is thus allowed but lesbian behaviour outlawed, then it is possible to use this command against polygamous marriages, which in turn shows us a contradiction. And yet, you will find no law in Leviticus against lesbian behaviour and the word-use in surrounding passages will show this notable exception. I believe this behaviour was not outlawed as if it was, there may be a contradiction concerning polygamous marriage.
Concerning homosexuality, I stand by what I say: we cannot apply our modern understanding on the ancients way of understanding. The modern view of the homosexual is a 17th century construction.
On this note, the ancients, especially in the Bible, only viewed sex as occurring with the involvement of a man, and this is still proved in Song of Solomon as there is still a man involved there. Behaviour between women was not counted as such.
You also cannot speak so negatively of the morals of other cultures. Remember, God works through all peoples. After the Flood, all people came from Noah and his family. Thus, we share a common Noahide understanding. Of course, people have deviated from this path, but if you compare the law texts od many ancient cultures, they are very similar. Added to this, while the Jews were exiled to Babylon, they edited the Bible with influences from Babylonian life and this is noticeable, not to mention the later Persian influence (see how the Bible speaks about Cyrus of Persia).
I think you need to broaden your view. Christ and God's love and understanding are not confined to a single book.
I realize the chapter deals with idolatry in the preceding verses. However, I don't believe that changes any of the pretty straightforward claims the text makes: men and women committed same-sex acts, which are shameful and dishonorable. I don't think the wording is particularly difficult to interpret, and I've never heard a plausible alternative interpretation presented.
You are correct that there's not much focus on female homosexuality in the Bible. As I'm sure you know, male homosexuality IS addressed elsewhere, both in the Old and New Testaments. But even though this is the only reference to female homosexuality I'm aware of, one is enough. How many times does God have to say something to make it bad? Just once. I'm sure certain Old Testament regulations were listed multiple times, while other obscure ones were only listed once. But whether God said it one time or five times, it's supposed to be followed.
I fail to see the connection between polygamy and lesbianism here. You seem to have reasoned through it and apparently see some sort of contradiction, but I'm not following, so I won't dismiss your argument without understanding it first. If you're willing to explain it in another way, or perhaps more thoroughly, I'd be happy to consider it.
I agree that we cannot use our modern understanding of homosexuality (or any other issue) to interpret what was written long ago in a different culture. What I mean to say is that God's commands transcend cultural difference, and remain true regardless of the time or culture, and regardless of each culture's understanding of any issue. I've seen many attempts to say that homosexuality meant something different when Romans was written, but I've never been convinced that the understanding was different enough to warrant a change in the conclusion that homosexuality is wrong for both sexes.
As for cultures believing that sex only could occur when a man is involved, I've not heard of that before, so I'll tentatively defer to you on that. But even if that's true, I frankly don't see that it matters, for the same reason as the previous point. Even if a human culture holds a certain belief, that counts for nothing compared to what God's standards are, and God, speaking through Paul, seems to make his stance on the matter pretty clear in Romans 1:27-28.
On the matter of the morals of other cultures, I hope I am not being misunderstood. I do not mean to disparage the morality of other cultures. My point was only that we cannot use the beliefs of other cultures to learn what is truly moral, just, or right, because no human being—and no human culture—has perfect morality. My American culture certainly doesn't. Nor does my specific church, or any other church! Nor does your Eastern European homeland, nor Israel (ancient or modern), nor anywhere else. Yes, other cultures—and I would say ALL cultures—have some measure of true morality, justice and righteousness that they teach. Some cultures may have it 80% correct, others 50%, others 20%. My point is that we can only learn what is 100% moral and right from God's Word.
To relate this to your point about other cultures influencing Israel, certainly their time in exile led to their host nations influencing Israel's history and records kept in the Bible. But I do not believe these other cultures caused changes in the law of God. Many times in the Old Testament, God rebuked Israel for allowing other ungodly, evil nations to influence them.
I also agree that God can, has, and continues to work through all people. But God also says that all people are sinners, failing to meet his standard of perfection. So while there is wisdom to be learned from most cultures, we can only learn true morality from God, and the only place he has spoken authoritatively is in the Bible. The Bible has more authority than any other culture, king, academic or philosopher, so if there is ever a contradiction, the Bible must be believed and/or obeyed rather than the other. That is not to dismiss all cultures as irrelevant; it is to elevate the Word of God to its proper high-ranking place.
Lastly, I'm not sure what you mean by "Christ and God's love and understanding are not confined to a single book." If you mean there are valuable things to learn from other culture, people and books, of course I agree, as I stated above. We can even learn certain things about God from observing the creation around us, as Romans 1:19-20 says. But if you mean to imply that any other source of information is comparably close to the Bible in truth or value, I must respectfully but strongly disagree. We can recognize the value of other teachings and cultures, but if we do not hold up the Bible in its own all-surpassing category of truth, wisdom, value, and authority, then there is little point in being Christian.
PP,
If you understand that Romans 1 deals with idolatry, then you will understand that the verses you show there, 26 and 27, do not describe a command at all, but rather a punishment given to idol worshippers. In other words, if you commit idolatrous actions, your punishment is the unnatural use of a man and a woman and that. Unnatural here is not clear in its root meaning as it has several possible interpretations. But again, inference should tell us that if there is no law in Leviticus then this cannot be a law against lesbian action. In fact, no new laws were made in New Testament times, law was given once before and that was it. Leviticus laws and those in Deuteronomy were also only intended for the Israelites, majority of nations were under Noahide laws.
I see that you establish that being a true Christian means you have to elevate the Bible far beyond everything else. And while I hold the Bible in great esteem, I do not think your viewpoint is helpful. You are making a statement about religion here. Jesus did not bring us religion, He brought us a Way. I always ask this: imagine your life without the Bible, take yourself back to Noah after the Flood, or take yourself to Second Temple Jerusalem where there was no New Testament, how would you understand who God is? What is your reference point? Jesus gave us the answer, God is inside already. We never needed a book in the first place. Modern Bibles we have, especially English ones, are so mistranslated, are you willing to base your entire faith on a book that you haven't even tried to seek in its original tongues, a book that in its current form is showing you a vastly different picture from what Jesus actually taught?
I’m going simply say that your view appears to be grasping for a way to justify what you want to believe. The Bible doesn’t have to say “lesbianism is wrong!” For it to be wrong. God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us. And the Holy Spirit makes it clear to me that women with women is as wrong as men with men. If the Holy Spirit tells you differently, that’s between you and God. I won’t try to convince you that you are wrong, and I won’t be convinced by you that I am wrong. Sometimes, we just agree to disagree and move on. God will judge us all in His timing.
Salcpl,
You may think what you'd like to, it's your right, but inasmuch as you tell me that I try and justify something, I can say the same of most Christians who justify a religion that Christ never taught.
Now, Holy Spirit guides us on what is good and bad in our own lives, but I do not think that what you suppose, that He has come to make any new general laws, is true. This is also inconsistent with what most Christians view in that they believe the Bible is the only source for all these aforementioned rules and prohibitions. So stick with your view if you'd like, but don't switch to the other one when it suits you.
As for me, I follow Jesus. He told me that it was finished on the Cross. He told me that His burden is light and His yoke is easy. I threw off the Christian religious yoke because it was too burdensome and guilt-inducing.
Christ told me that God was always there, inside of me, as my Heavenly Father, and that His Kingdom had already arrived.
@BehindTheCurtain
I'm reluctant to dig into these more technical biblical/theological issues because it's pretty far off the original topic of this post, but I'll give it one more reply here as briefly as I can, because these are some foundational issues to the Christian faith.
I think I understand your argument better now, so thank you for clarifying. If I'm understanding correctly now, you're saying that, because there is no explicit command against female homosexual acts in the Old Covenant, it was never morally wrong, and so this New Testament reference cannot be referring to lesbianism, because it was never immoral under God's law in the first place. Is that a fair representation of your argument?
On the idea of no new law being given in the New Covenant, I think you're correct in a partial sense, in that most or all New Testament commands had pretty clear roots in the Old Covenant. However, there ARE certainly commands given in the New Testament, and there is also expanded revelation given in the New Testament, which necessarily changes how the Oold Covenant law should be best understood. For example, The Old Covenant allowed for divorce, but as Jesus said in Matthew 19:4-9, that was NOT in alignment with God's original design and will! It was only a temporary allowance because of the Israel's "hardness of heart". So even there, we see a case of how the revelation of Christ changes (or clarifies and confirms) how we are to understand and apply the Old Covenant laws.
I agree with you that Romans 1 presents homosexuality as a punishment or a judgment. That is clear from the text, indicated by the use of the phrase "God gave them up" (Romans 1:24, 26, 28). However, that does not logically mean it cannot be sin at the same time. It absolutely can be, and is, and I do not see any reason why there needs to be an explicit Old Covenant command in order for this to be the case. God's commands are God's commands no matter when he gives them. In Romans 1 it is still clearly described as shameful and dishonorable behavior, regardless of whether or not the Old Covenant made that explicit. Furthermore, the homosexuality in verses 26-27 is immediately followed by verse 28 saying "God gave them up . . . to do what ought not to be done." Many more sins and evil traits are listed as things that "ought not to be done", and then Paul says AGAIN in verse 32 that ". . . they know God's righteous degree that those who practice such things deserve to die . . ." This is all in the same context, clearly including the homosexuality mentioned only a couple of sentences before. It wouldn't make ANY sense at all for Paul to say "God gave them up to homosexuality, but that's sometimes okay," and then immediately say "God gave them up to 21 other evil things, and those ought not to be done." It's absolutely one of those things that ought not to be done, which means it's against God's moral code, regardless of whether he ever wrote an explicit command about it. I cannot fathom how a different conclusion can be reached unless a pre-concieved idea from outside of scripture is given preference over what the scripture itself says quite clearly and firmly.
I also agree that what Jesus brought us was not just a religion, but a Way. That is a good way to put it. However, I would emphasize that the Way he brought us was not just *A* way, but *THE* Way (John 14:6). Jesus said he is the ONLY Way to the Father (also John 14:6).
Do you have a reference on where Jesus said "God is inside [us] already"? I can think of places where he said similar things, but from my memory, he was always talking about people who already believed in him. To really know God and believe in him, even in the time when Jesus was alive but before the New Testament had been written, would be next to impossible without knowing about God through the written words of the Old Testament prophets. Sure, you could have a newly-born, infant faith and relationship with him, but it could never grow to maturity without the written scriptures, which is why they have been so highly valued throughout virtually all of Jewish and Christian history.
And even though Jesus' emphasis is on relationship rather than a religion of rules, there ARE still commandments we must follow. Jesus said that if we love him, we will follow his commandments (John 14:15, 21), and the Bible is the only place where those commandments are made clear. How else are we supposed to know what God said his commandments are? The very fact that humans—even people who claim to be Christians—have different conceptions of what is right and wrong, should tell you that whatever inner "moral compass" we have is extremely unreliable at best, and totally broken and backwards at worst.
That is why I hold the Bible far above any other writing outside of it, and that is why I will unapologetically stand on the truth that we DO need the Bible. I could not disagree more that "We never needed a book in the first place." I don't mean to be disrespectful, but do you remember how the Bible describes the world? Rampant wickedness as far as the eye could see. Evil. Darkness. Genesis 6:5 says that "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." And that's how it always would have been for the rest of history if God hadn't revealed himself to his prophets and saints, and had them write down the history of what he did for them and the ways he gave them to live by.
I agree that our understanding of the Bible can be—and often is—twisted by using our very different cultural lens to interpret it. That doesn't mean the Bible is wrong, it means WE are wrong in our approach. I see how mistranslations would undermine your trust in the Bible, and I do agree that it isn't translated perfectly. But personally, I believe those mistranslations are minimal, and that the original meaning overall is very well preserved. And while I am no scholar in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, we do have modern tools that help us dig into that a little. And personally, my church's elders hold the original languages in high regard, and teach about the original language often, highlighting the meaning of key words, and explaining the implications of key grammatical structures.
And frankly, even if the Bible was flawed in significant ways, I would challenge anyone to find a more reliable and effective source for knowing God and learning righteous ways to live. It simply doesn't exist.
Great discussion question LLL!
My wife could cum from PIV alone, but many times I would also stimulate her clit and/or breasts during sex.
I think all women are a little different in what turns them on or makes them cum, but that’s your point.
The problem with many men is that they never learn their wife’s body. That’s bad.
For some of them, it’s selfishness, for sure. For some of them it’s lack of education on women’s needs and anatomy.
There’s no excuse for either, in my book. “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church…”
I think this includes sexual or physical love, but there’s a huge failure in that area.
Thought provoking for sure, and a much needed conversation.
Also, your excerpt was extremely hot, and may I say I found it extremely inspirational 😉
Great insight, KM! Yeah, we ladies seem to stump men with our sexual systems lol. But that makes me so grateful for the good men out there who are practicing that Christlike love in their marriages.
Glad the excerpt inspired you! 😉
My wife has almost always orgasmed at least one time during PIV sex. Typically it's 2 or 3 orgasms depending on how long I last and the rhythm and force we have.
I am a little above average in length and a lot above average in girth though, so that may have something to do with it.
Interesting! That must be awesome for you both! I do wonder what size, or at least girth, has to do with it.
In our younger days, we nearly always engaged in foreplay tuned into each other’s rising libido so that we could cum together. Almost always missionary, as she skillfully diddled her clit and I fucked her slow, fast, cock on her pussy lips and cock deep inside. As she began to cum, so would I. We would come enraptured (moaning and crying out for her) together!
She has never been a fan of toys – she often says, “I want your cock in my pussy!” However, for a time, she enjoyed a vibrator and wanted me to fuck her with it as she jilled herself off.
She has never just cum from PIV or from a dildo or vibrator without some clit stim. She’s a through and through clit/O girl.
LLL,
First of all, THANK YOU for your insightful and empathetic reply. (And, thank you to the MH Admins for providing a forum where the "shield of anonymity" enables such deep and detailed discussions!) Long ago, I had a dear female friend that was as insightful as LLL. She and I had many deep discussions. But, because we were both married Christians, there were certain boundaries that we could not cross in those discussions. The context of MH helps me (and others like me) to heal and to help others heal in those otherwise-forbidden areas.
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OK, now shifting gears. I'm curious, LLL, about one "technical" detail of your masturbation story. From the position that you described, HOW were you able to ride the dildo? (Does it have a suction cup that you stuck to the floor, the way that some women stick one to a shower wall and ride it standing doggy style?) I'm guessing that is the only way that it would work for you, but "inquiring minds need to know" for sure. 😉
You're welcome! It's always my hope to speak life and kindness to others, especially anyone who has been hurt. 🤗
So, to answer your "technical" question…my dildo is actually pretty heavy and stays put while I ride it. I always spread a towel out on the carpet and enjoy my session on that. But yeah, that's all there is to it. It's a weighty silicone material, and I guess I'm small enough that I don't pull it up with me when I lift my hips. 🤪 Plus, I'm usually not coming up very high, just a few inches. Nor am I taking the whole thing in. I think it's just under 6 inches long, and I can't get it all in. 🤭 I had to remeasure it because I forgot the dimensions. It's a 5" girth and that is enough too.
My wife and I have been married nearly 25 years. In the beginning she needed her clit stimulated for an orgasm. With or without vaginal penetration. This was probably due to our inexperience more than anything. It was the only orgasm she knew. She was very reserved and we didn’t communicate the way we probably needed to. I have ensured she always cums first unless she tells me to cum and then we finish her with oral or toys(s) or both. As our experience and commutation grew, her favorite orgasms shifted from local clit orgasm to g-spot full body orgasm. she can orgasm by riding my cock and grinding her clit on my shaft, but likes to finish with g-spot orgasm. To achieve this she needs or likes to have something else stimulated to get her there. That stimulation my be a vibe or her finger stimulating her clit, my finger in her ass or nipple play, but I can not hit her g-spot with her on top grinding her clit on my shaft, the angle is just wrong for her g-spot to be stimulated. Doggy style I can hit her g-spot just right, but penetration is only a few inches and my cock is not rubbing her clit so that’s where additional stimulation is needed or wanted for her to reach the big O. She can be on her back or side and I can find her g-spot easily with my cock, but again my shaft is not stimulating her clit. This doesn’t make her less of a woman or me less of a man. We’ve figure all this out with trial and error with better communication as we’ve aged. The journey has been amazing for us and I pray you find the man God has made for you to start your journey.
Wow, I love how you both have worked to learn each other's bodies so well, especially you helping her discover how to orgasm differently. Beautiful! I look forward to marriage and trying out all those positions to see what will work or feel different.
Thank you for praying for me and for my future husband! That means a lot to me! 🥰
I can orgasm from PIV, but it's easier from cowgirl compared to missionary due to the angle. That said, I get so much enjoyment from the process of PIV that orgasm is never the end goal. If I get it, that's wonderful, but it's not a requirement. I thoroughly enjoy the process even if it doesn't end in the big result.
I understand that on some level, I suppose; as much as a man can understand the feminine way of thinking 😂
It would be great to read a story delving into the emotional side of sex from a woman’s perspective, though.
Perhaps you or one of the other great ladies here could put pen to paper on this?
KingdomMan, sex is more physical than emotional to me. I mentioned I love PIV for its own sake even though I don't always orgasm. My husband enjoys sex too even when he doesn't orgasm.
Fair enough. I deeply appreciate women who love and enjoy the physical aspect of sex. (Not surprisingly 😂) I misunderstood your meaning.
"Everyone is different. " … that's certainly true. I'm of the belief that women can learn to ogasm, and that with
practice ,& experience, will find orgasms come more easily, stronger, and will even experience multiples, if stimulation continues.. after a 1st orgasm. During foreplay, a women's clitoris becomes engorged with blood, swells & becomes more sensitive. I've seen diagrams that show clitoral tissue is much larger had the external presence..it extends around & into the vaginal canal. This sensitivity, which increases from the increased blood flow & swelling of sensitive tissues increases when stimulated. While orgasm actually occurs in the brain, it is triggered from signals given from various body parts. Verbal comments & sounds, are heard , sense of touch from other body parts (besides the genitalia) also contribute to the brains input , that triggers an orgasm. Foreplay,& practice with different forms of stimulation one finds pleasurable, + a caring partner, & many factors provide input that leads to the neural explosion we term an orgasm. Practice & a willingness to let go , to feel & enjoy the pleasurable sensations will improve the results.
Here is an activity I like to do.
Cowgirl, but hubby is to lie still concentrate on keeping his dick hard (easy), and trying not to move his hips (hard).
I'll sit on his hard dick, with him inside me I'll frig myself, my hand on my own clit. Hubby can play with my tits.
Do I cum because I'm masturbating? Or am on his dick? [wink]
I will sometimes be wearing a thin, partly see-through dress.
LLL – I have found it very good to read as much as possible on any topic that interests you. I am sure your future husband will LOVE the fruits of your research.