Physical Boundaries of Dating?

Hi all! First off, I would like to say that I have been following MH for quite some time and that this site has proven to be a blessing to me. Whether it be an entertaining story or one that gives advice, I always manage to get something out of it. There is one question I have always had, though, that am yet to find a truely definite answer to: What are the physical boundaries on a relationship outside of marriage? (And I know that this site is called “Marriage Heat” for a reason, but I greatly value the input of this community and know that you all have experiance with this.)

I think that one reason I have not settled entirely on an answer would be that even among Christians, the actual definition of sex seems to vary greatly. To some, if an act could be interpreted as sexual in nature, then it is sex. This could range anywhere from a kiss on the cheek to intercourse; it is all equally sinful to them. On the other end of the spectrum, you have those who believe that anything short of intercourse is allowable. They claim that “hands are grand” and “oral is moral.” In fact, I personally know Christian men who brag about getting blow jobs from the women at their church. While most people probably line up somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, I have seen all types, even on this site.

While I personally have done nothing major in my dating life that has violated my conscience, I believe that I could rest easier knowing that I am not missing out on anything.

Thanks and God bless, “Mike”

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13 replies
  1. Harper Shelby Thornton says:

    Those "Christian" men are shameless to brag – I'm not saying whether or not they're saved it's just that should not be doing that, let alone brag about it. It's called oral SEX for a reason, son.

    My husband and I never went further than kissing, hugging and holding hands. That's all. We didn't see each other naked before our wedding night, and of course it was worth the wait for us.

    Yes, both sides are extreme and I am a "middle person". I think that kissing hugging & holding hands should be the limit, as you can have some contact but not sexual. God bless

  2. Happy Husband says:

    There is foreplay and there is sex. Kissing is foreplay, but you don't have an orgasm from kissing (that I have ever heard of). I would add that most states define sexual contact for the purposes of defining sexual assault in the realm of non-consensual sexual behavior. If you are stimulating genetalia for pleasure, you have crossed over into sexual contact, whether this be manual, oral, or through penetration of either the anus or vagina with a finder or penis. This definition would contact for gratification with a woman's breast(s), although many would argue that the touching of breasts (manual or oral) is again, merely foreplay. If you ask me, in religious or non-religious context, I would say that anything past 2nd base (kissing, touching of breasts) gets into the realm of sex. As for the definition of "virginity," I think it is pretty accepted that the definition of the loss of virginity is penis/vagina intercourse, since that is how we are designed to reproduce.

  3. J G says:

    My youth pastor once answered this question by saying that anything a person who is married shouldn't be doing with someone other than their spouse an unmarried person probably shouldn't be doing. As a married man I can hug other people, kiss (as a friendly greeting not passionate or sexual in nature) other people, hold hands with other people. I can not perform oral sex on other people or have oral sex performed on me. I can not manually stimulate someone else with my hands nor have them stimulate me with their hands. Limits are good. The wait is worth it. It's not easy but it is worth it. As we get married later in life than they did when the Bible was written it is arguably harder for us to wait. But that only adds to it's worth.

  4. TW says:

    People are wise to be cautious and certainly, if it doesn't feel like something you should do, don't do it. On the other hand I'd also just say that if you do down those roads, don't beat yourself up for it either. That's a very short way of saying that these answers are often easier said than done.

  5. PacMan says:

    Unfortunately, this might get me vilified, but I am probably more liberal than most Christians when it comes to this. But let me just start with the bottom line answer — which might be unsatisfying.

    There is no black & white on this issue. Mike, you are correct that there is a wide range of ways sexuality exists in a relationship, and there are many shades of how "sex" is defined. There just isn't a line in the sand, like most youth pastors might want you to believe. But I could poke holes in those "theories" all day long.

    Anyone that says "The Bible clearly says…" (maybe someone outside this site, for example) on this issue is lying. A) There was no dating in scripture, nearly all marriages were arranged. B) The only pre-marital boundary actually mentioned is intercourse ("fornication"). Many scholars have concluded that this means actual intercourse. C) Many of our Christian "heroes" were not monogamous – but had multiple wives and concubines. This is "descriptive" (what happened) not "prescriptive" (what you should do also). D) Just because something is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean there is blanket permission to do those things (e.g. heroin). This just means it is a "gray area" — which also becomes tricky b/c what might be okay for one person may not be right for another. Re-read the discussion about nudity on this site to see that the "moral" line will shift greatly from person to person.

    My answer is basically… it depends on a lot of factors — incl. the age of you and your girlfriend, how many relationships you've had in the past, if you are serious about marriage, are you monogamously dating, are you engaged or close to it, where is the spiritual life of both of you, etc.

    One great quote I heard from a pastor/author is that if you are in a dating relationship aimed at marriage, then you are aiming towards having sex, so it's natural to have some sort of physical bond. However, while you are dating, you are also developing a spiritual relationship together (this often gets overlooked). A good principle (not a rule) is that your physical relationship should never exceed your spiritual relationship. Therefore I can tell those guys getting blowjobs that they are living wrongly, not because Oral sex has the word "sex" — but because they are just living for physical pleasure. They don't have a deep, abiding spiritual relationship with those women.

    For the record, my future wife and I did make out and did some petting on the outside of clothing, and we did have orgasms thru petting and dry humping. I'm not saying that's right for others, just "descriptive." We were both in our mid 20s with FT jobs, spiritually strong, and didn't really grow our physical relationship until right before engagement (i.e. The commitment wasn't "casual"). The funny thing — we were not pursuing a physical relationship beyond some passionate kissing — and (you'all get a kick out of this, Harper) my wife had orgasms from us kissing only. No running or even pressing… just while kissing. It happened like 3 or 4 times. We clearly didn't feel sinful or that we had fornicated, just because my future wife had an orgasm. So maybe the orgasm itself isn't the thing that defines sex.

    Sorry this is so long. And I'm not trying to start a riot. I know there are folks on this site who are all over the map on this topic. So just wanted to share some of my left-of-center ideas and experience.

  6. asm says:

    I'll give you a conservative view. Other than kissing and hugging keep your clothes on and your hands to yourselves. I hear so many people regretting going to far and an equal number thankful that that didn't. A little self control will be worth it.

  7. Sarge says:

    I'm in agreement with asm. No roaming hands, or rushin fingers before marriage. My code, and the one we taught our children was that, there should not be any type of sexual contact prior to marriage. That includes, touching of breasts and or genitilia, no oral sex, mutual masturbation, and no intercourse. I always found it helpful after I had been making out with a girl and was ramped up, too masturbate, but no porn. I used my very vivid imagination and once you get married, do not covet your neighbors spouse. My bride is deceased and I use this site and my memories of her and I as a tool for release.
    You'll be glad you waited, we were both virgins on our wedding day, and I am so grateful to say that. We learned each other's likes and dislikes, our positions, and our minds were never thinking about how much we wished the other would be as good as the so and so that we'd had sex with before. My wife gave amazing blow jobs, and as far as I know, they were the best anyone ever gave.

  8. GodSaveTheTsar89 says:

    "My youth pastor once answered this question by saying that anything a person who is married shouldn't be doing with someone other than their spouse an unmarried person probably shouldn't be doing."

    That's an excellent standard to go by. I would add to it: if you're dating and unmarried, don't do anything to your lover that would arouse you and don't let them do anything to you that would arouse you.

  9. Clara Olivia Thornton says:

    I, too, think that kissing, hugging & holding hands is allowed just don't let it go further. It will be worth the wait! You'll be so glad you did, I know from experience because I also never went further than those 3 things I mentioned, and when I gave my virginity to my husband on our wedding night it was so special, because we waited. It was all new to us, making it even more special

  10. PacMan says:

    I fully respect those who don't want to go past holding hands or a quick kiss. But the proverbial line in the sand doesn't exist. I had an amazingly HOT physical relationship with my future wife. It was awesome, fun, helpful to our relationship, and helpful (not hurtful) to our married life. We both were virgins on our wedding night, and I'm also happy we waited to have sex until that night. But I'm also not sorry we had some hot and heavy make out sessions leading up to that night. Two key things for us — we were spiritually mature and compatible, and neither of us were really tempted to go all the way. We would make out, dry hump, and both have orgasms with our clothes still on. It was a great time. I'm actually getting a hard on right now thinking about some of those fond memories. I would do it all over again the same way. (Some say it's inappropriate to do anything that might arouse one's fiancé. But why? Whose rules? I think arousal can be wonderful, if you are both committed to save sexual intercourse for the wedding night. If one or both are very weak when tempted, then that's a different story…)

  11. HornyHubby says:

    I haven't been able to log on for a while, but I've been following this thread and thinking about it. And I have to say that I find myself agreeing more with what PacMan is saying. I had a similar experience as he did with my wife before we were dating. We would kiss, make out, lay on the bed and make out, dry hump to orgasm, etc. The difference is that while we did that, it was more of a random heat of the moment thing, not a planned thing. And we were overcome with major guilt and shame immediately afterward. But looking back now I'm thinking, "What was the big deal?" We knew we were going to get married, we were committed to each other and loved each other. And we were horny for each other. So isn't it better to dry hump with clothes on just to relieve some pressure rather than have premarital sex? I wish I knew then what I know now. For at the time, we both even thought solo, private masturbation was wrong. So we had no avenue to release our horny feelings for each other, even though it would be a while before we married. I, too, am glad we were both virgins when we married, but I wish we hadn't had so much guilt about our sexual feelings for each other while we were dating. And I wish we could have enjoyed each other in this way without the guilt.

    Not to mention the frustration of sometimes we would get to making out heavily and start dry humping, but then my wife would suddenly be overcome with guilt and want to stop. Whereas I was almost ready to cum! So that was frustrating for those times too! Now I can see where this would only be good for a couple that knew they were on the path to get married, rather than someone who had only been dating two weeks. In Biblical times, being engaged to be married had legal repercussions. Breaking an engagement was considered a divorce. That's why in the story of Mary getting pregnant with Jesus, she was "pledged to be married to Joseph." And Joseph originally planned on divorcing her quietly. He had to go through with an actual divorce proceeding, even though they were only engaged. So engagement is so close to marriage that the wedding is almost just a formality. Or a public celebration of what already is. So if a couple is engaged then a strong case could be made that they are already married in God's eyes. So a little dry humping and making out would actually be good for them.

    Now the question at this point is (And PacMan, I would love to hear your thoughts on this) If being engaged is 99% married, should they go ahead and have sex? On one hand, I can see how waiting until there is an actual marriage license and the wedding is over to have sex would be beneficial. On the other hand, based on this idea that being engaged is very much like being married, I can see how one could view the couple as already married so why not? I can see it both ways, so it would be good to hear some thoughts on that.

  12. love 2 travel says:

    Like a lot of people have said, there is no black and white line. I would suggest what I told my kids about appropriate touches. No one should touch you in any place covered by a swimsuit. In talking to my kids I was more referencing abuse type situations, but I think it is a good guideline for pre marriage.

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