More to the Picture
As I’ve posted stories, discussion questions, and comments here on MH over the past few years, I’ve voiced a fear of getting married and being deceived, cheated on, and hurt. The reason for this fear has mainly come from situations I’ve observed or heard about where seemingly good Christian husbands were discovered to be unfaithful to their wives or engaging in perverted sexual activities, sometimes even with minors. A few well-known pastors and ministry leaders have recently been exposed for this kind of sin. Obviously, this is sinful and wrong and very damaging to the wives and children of these men, and certainly any victims. I’ve heard of similar things happening to friends of mine or friends of friends. It’s disturbing and has influenced my wary demeanor.
However, over the last few months I’ve learned some other things which have helped me see more to the picture. Let me stress that I am NOT excusing the sin of cheating or immoral husbands. Not at all. But I have discovered another dynamic which I did not really know about until recently.
It started with the discovery (which I’ve shared here before) of trauma that my mom experienced some time in the past. What or when it was, I don’t know. Ensuing conversations with my dad have revealed that he and Mom are living in a basically sexless marriage as a result. With their particular situation, this is not all her fault. As far as we’re all aware, she does not remember this trauma. She doesn’t know why she’s struggled with lack of sexual desire for years, though she and Dad tried to find the root cause. They went to doctors and I believe some counseling years ago. By God’s grace, they are now seeing a professional counselor who is also a Christian psychiatrist, so there is hope for them.
But I wanted to learn more about this issue, so I began researching: reading articles, watching YouTube videos, and more. I was stunned at what I found. There is an entire demographic of couples where the wives refuse to give their husbands sex. And it isn’t because they have a genuine problem like a traumatic past or a health issue. They are just selfish, manipulative, and toxic. There are several YouTube channels I watch on occasion which are kind of strong on the alpha male mindset (which isn’t always healthy) and they’ll show videos of women who are absolutely vicious towards their boyfriends/husbands. Their words, their actions, the way they dress…it’s so sad and maddening. It was very understandable that all the guys in the comments are encouraging each other to never get married so they won’t be trapped by these coldblooded women.
When I first saw all this, I was horrified. And yet, in a way I was kind of relieved. Let me explain.
The more I learned about the male brain and thought processes and needs and desires, the more I realized that I was unjustly demonizing men. (Again, there are still immoral men out there who are sinning regardless of what their wives do, but I’m not talking about those here.) There was more to the picture when it came to stories of infidelity on the man’s part. Most of the time, they go to find sex, or some form of intimacy, outside the marriage because they’re being denied it at home. Men NEED sex in marriage. They need it like they need food. It’s the way they feel love, respect, and fulfillment. So when it is withheld or used as a bargaining chip, it damages the man in all those areas. It even damages them physically. My dad says that life is a daily struggle just to get past all the temptations. This was eye-opening to me.
And when I say I was relieved, I mean that I had found at least one of the keys to avoiding ever causing my future husband to cheat on me. If I am meeting his needs with a welcoming, excited, loving spirit, he won’t WANT to stray. I know this doesn’t mean he’ll never be tempted, but there is a lot that I can do to lessen that threat. A man wants to be wanted. Even those guys who aren’t super into physical touch still need that physical connection in order to feel masculine.
Boy, learning this made me want to pour out all my love on some wonderful, lonely guy and assure him that I would always want and love him!
All this to say that a rather painful fact of modern marriages turned out to play a role in freeing me from the anxiety I’ve suffered. God literally does use all things for good to us who love Him! It really all goes back to Scripture and the plan God has for marriage. If couples would just do it His way, there would not be any of this injury and heartbreak.
I am stating here, as I have before, that I am going to strive with the help and power of God to be as different from those self-centered women as I possibly can be. When (if) I get married, I am going to be one man’s hotwife, his Song of Solomon lover, his Proverbs 31 woman, his Queen Esther. If my future husband could read my mind and see the imaginations on what I want to do with him physically, he would probably pass out. I want to be completely uninhibited, free, passionate, sweet, tender, ravishing, and devoted. I long to nourish him and cherish him with my words, my looks, my body, my actions, and my prayers. All I could ask for is that he does the same for me. Then we could live out the complete picture as God laid it out. What a beautiful one it would be!
Here are some of the YouTube channels I’ve found to be very enlightening are as follows:
The Happy Wife School (I think someone else here on MH mentioned this lady. She is epic and blunt and speaks truth)
Melanie King
Rebecca Barrett
Alexey Welsh
The Dr. John Delony Show
Emilywking
ApplyGodsWord.com/Mark Ballenger
I may have been the one to mention Happy Wife School. My wife has watched several of her talks and she realized she has had something against men that was buried deep inside and it was mostly based on lies she has always believed. We have been on a journey for the last several months and there has been a great deal of improvement as she has been working on those lies. I’ll have to look into the other references you also posted. Another good one that I’ve been reading from is Dr Laura Schlesinger. Thank you LLL for stepping out and trying to address things before marriage. This will save you and your husband a lot of heartache.
LLL,
God bless you! You hit the nail on the head. Oh, how I wish married women would understand a man's needs as you do. So sad that as a single lady, you are more enlightened than many married women.
As a man in a sexless marriage and who does not believe in divorce, I can't even begin to describe the temptations I face. But, I am determined to remain faithful. Sinful sexual gratification is not worth losing my salvation. But believe me, the mental agony is nearly more than I can bear. I can't even begin to describe the frustration when I allow my mind to recall sexual intercourse with my wife. The emotional release of cumming inside is arguably the most satisfying thing a man can ever experience. I can only pray God will move this mountain, because I almost can't bear the thought of living out my days in celibacy. I feel so trapped. I can't sin, and I can't fulfill my sexual needs the way God intended.
I would posit that it is more difficult now than when I was a single virgin because I know what I am missing. Sometimes, I feel like I will lose my mind. This is why I masturbate. God forgive me if it truly is a sin because I feel so cheated. So lonely. So unfulfilled. I can't imagine a loving God condemning me for masturbating to release my sexual tension versus committing adultery with my wife. As you mentioned, it's a biological need. God created us as sexual beings. And I think he gave us masturbation as a somewhat limited way of at least reducing our sexual tension and temptations to seek sex outside of marriage.
That said, every man is different. Some men can refrain from sexual release and handle it better than others. I am not one of them. My urges are powerful. You mentioned it in your post. And my love language of all things is touch. I'm not sure all men are the same in that area. I don't know.
So many things I want to say, but don't want to ramble. All I can say is, your future husband will be a very blessed man and I commend you for educating yourself. I can promise you, he will move the earth to satisfy you sexually, physically, spiritually, and emotionally in return. There is nothing more fulfilling to a man than knowing he is pleasing his wife. I pray that you will find your husband soon.
Thanks for the YouTube mentions. I am a subscriber to Melanie King and I agree, she is awesome!
Blessings.
Steady89 – As one who was once married to an abusive wife for 16 years, I can say without reservation that a loving God will not condemn you for masturbating or for not staying in a sexless marriage. The formal "Church" has somehow taught you that you will lose your salvation for sinning. Your salvation is a GIFT from God, something that we can't earn by works. Once you have accepted that gift, why would a loving God take it away? If that were the case, salvation would be nothing but a "carrot on a stick" to tease you with, which is absolutely contrary to who God really is. He is definitely a loving God and wants nothing but the best for you and me. He has told me so in no uncertain terms.
When my first wife decided she wanted a divorce, I prayed for guidance and wisdom. That guidance came first from a Christian marriage counselor and then from God himself. The counselor talked to me and my ex separately. In the beginning she stated that in her experience, most marriages could be saved, but there are exceptions. After meeting with the ex, she told me I was one of the exceptions and I'd be better off without her, as she was a "man hater" at heart. She recommended that I pray about this, and I did.
The next thing was a dream. In that dream God showed me a woman, including her name, that she had a son, and that we would have a child together. About a month and a half later she moved into the same apartment building that I was in. Turns out her son and my oldest daughter knew each other from preschool, which afforded the introduction. We were almost instantly attracted to each other and went out to dinner a few weeks later. The next morning, I had to leave on a business trip, and was on cloud 9, but struggling with the "church" teaching that you're married till death do you part. At this point God spoke audibly to me. His words were this: "That vow says, what GOD has brought together, let not man take apart. Please look at this in the context of your PREVIUOS marriage and your CURRENT relationship." WOW, I almost wrecked my truck. Afterwards, that still, small voice provided some clarification. "All marriages are honored by God due to free moral choice, BUT not all of those are brought together by him. This was a monumental revelation for me.
Mary and I were married about a year later and that was 28 years ago. When we combined households, we didn't need anything but a stove and refrigerator. The house we rented had a used set available for $100. The only duplications were two microwaves and 2 coffee makers. We sold one microwave for $45. Later, when we bought a house, we sold the fridge for $50. If you've done the math, we got back 95 of the $100. We kept the coffee pots which eventually went bad, but for $5, what can you expect. We also have a daughter of our own who turns 24 Next month.
Additionally, the reason Mary was going through a divorce, is her first husband turned into an alcoholic after the death of his dad. After giving him many chances to get help, she finally confronted him with a choice: "it's the alcohol or me and Colby", the alcohol won. This without a doubt proves to me that God is a loving God and does not expect anyone to stay in an abusive relationship for any reason.
Also, people through bad teaching, seem to think that sex isn't part of God's design in marriage except for procreation. Nothing could be further from the truth. How do we know this? God gave women something that is exclusively for their intimate enjoyment – a clitoris. The clitoris serves no purpose in the creation a baby or in childbirth. Its ONLY FUNCTION is for a WOMEN's SEXUAL PLEASURE! How's that for proof that God is a sexual, loving God. Frankly, I'm a little jealous but then i realize that it is their reward for taking care of us. WOW, our God is a truly an awesome God.
I hope this reply helps in some way. I'm not encouraging a divorce but rather I'm hoping to give some insights into what our God really wants for all of us in marriage. Hopefully it can open some dialogue with your wife to re-establish a fulfilling sexual relationship. If it doesn't, know that masturbation will not cost you your salvation, nor will a divorce for that matter. I prayerfully hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does, please know that God loves you no matter what and that he will provide for you. Prayers for you during this trying time.
@Horndog53
I don't want to be critical in a personal way, but for the sake of everyone reading, I want to touch on a shortcoming I see with your story.
I noticed that, as you described how you navigated the tragedy of divorce and your path to remarriage, the guidance you followed contains a lot of subjective personal experience, but precisely zero references to scripture. I think that is a very dangerous way to navigate life challenges. Now, perhaps you did engage in some careful consideration of scripture during this journey, but the fact that none was referenced in your story, and subjective personal experience was emphasized, is concerning. Especially because I believe the consensus of scripture runs counter to the conclusion you came to on the legitimacy of remarriage after divorce.
But that's not what I'm going to focus on, since that's not the intended topic of this post. I just want to make sure that other readers know that consideration of scripture is an absolutely essential part of any decision-making process for major life decisions, because it wasn't indicated here.
Your experiences are fascinating, and I'm sure they felt compelling. But as Christians, we must always double-check our subjective personal experiences with an objective standard—namely scripture—to keep us grounded, so we don't run off into fantasies and delusions.
Putting aside the issue of audibly hearing God, which I believe is possible but exceedingly unlikely, the word "Please" does not sound like something that is in God's vocabulary. God commands. God instructs. God does not ask nicely. I cannot think of a single place in the Bible where God or one of his representatives asks someone to "please" do something. That makes me very suspicious about where that voice actually came from.
The Bible warns about things like this.
– 1 Kings 22 (especially verse 22) and 2 Chronicles 18 (especially verse 21) tell a story involving a "lying spirit" that seemed to speak the truth, but did not. Prophets and kings alike were deceived by something that appeared to come from God, and so were led to destruction. There are multiple purposes to this story. One is to show God's judgment on those who do not obey him. It is also, in part, a cautionary tale about listening to the many voices that encourage you toward something that will destroy you, when you should humbly listen to the one true voice of God that speaks truth, which we can most reliably know only through scripture—certainly more reliably than mysterious voices we hear, which could just as easily be "lying spirits" as they could be the voice of God.
– Acts 17:10-11 applauds the Jews of Berea for their response to the gospel: they didn't reject it, nor did they blindly accept it. They received the words spoken to them, then double-checked them against the written scriptures "to see if these things were so." They didn't just accept what they were told, even by apostles of God! No, they went to make sure that it agreed with the truth they already had in written scripture. And they were called "noble" for this, because it is the proper response to hearing any message that claims to be from God.
– Proverbs 12:15, 16:2 and 21:2 have things to say about those who follow their own ways without acknowledging God's ways. And how do we know God's ways unless we find them in scripture? Subjective experience has its place, but is extremely unreliable. We need the grounding of scripture to reliably guide us.
PaientPassion – Thanks for the reply to my post. Like you, I don't want to cast doubt on your beliefs, but I want to clarify a few things I've questioned and researched in my 71 years on earth.
The first being that when God answers prayers, he speaks to us in our own language and manner of speech. The fact that I used the word "please" is my manner of speech, as in being polite when asking someone to consider another point of view. He will also speak in the first person saying things like "you need to do…." rather than "I need to do…." which can be either your own thoughts or that of the "lying spirit".
Secondly, I am very aware of the "lying spirit" vulnerability when discerning spiritual matters, so I do pray and check biblical references as well. Interestingly, I've learned that the "lying spirit" can affect different translations of the Bible as well. The original manuscripts from which the translations are derived are truly the inspired word of God. However, since there are many words that do not translate directly from Hebrew or Greek to English, the translators have to discern the true meaning and then put it into words or phrases that we can understand and relate to, which is often a difficult task. Therein lies the problem, the "lying spirit" can affect the way something is presented based on a persons own feelings, even for translators of the Bible.
For instance, the same Hebrew word that is translated "Covet" in the Old Testament, is translated "Lust" in the new Testament, according to some Hebrew scholars. Many of the scholars believe that what Jesus said should be translated "COVET" as opposed to "LUST" since the original manuscripts used the same word in both the Ten Commandments and for Jesus explanation, in Hebrew. This minor change has a lot of people, including ones on this forum, very concerned about their thoughts and actions. Let me explain, To covet means to make a plan to acquire something that someone else has and to act on that plan, it's not just a thought. To lust means to have sexual thoughts about someone that appeals to you visually, but does does not include an action plan that is set into motion. You could lust after a picture in Playboy but it would be almost impossible to put her into an action plan. The difference being action vs thoughts. I know your going to reference keeping thoughts pure, and I would agree, but if you you don't it doesn't mean you're going to Hell for it. I don't believe a loving God would make men to get aroused at the sight of a beautiful woman and then call it an unforgivable sin to do so. Acknowledge it, ask for forgiveness and move on. It is the same type of contradiction as I pointed out regarding salvation in my previous post.
I have struggled with these and other biblical contradictions for many years so I don't quote a lot of scripture for this reason. When asked or pressed about my religious beliefs I respond with, I'm very spiritual but I'm not religious. In my mind being religious is doing the same thing the same way, over and over again, to the point of becoming very mechanical. (think of your typical church service these days). God wants us to have a very close, personal relationship with him and to not get hung up on the legalistic side of things. I believe this is what Jesus was meant when he said in Matthew that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". In modern vernacular "Keep It Simple Silly – KISS". I feel that all to often we try to make things way to complicated by searching out every little nuance in scripture.
In closing, I am in no way trying to put you down, I'm just presenting a little wisdom from years of trying to make sense of the scriptures and what God really wants from us. My conclusion is that all he wants is a close personal relationship with us, do as he says, and to ask for clarification when scripture is contradictory. Blessings for a Happy New Year
I just want to reply to this definition:
“To covet means to make a plan to acquire something that someone else has and to act on that plan”
That’s not what covet means in English or in Hebrew or in Greek. Look up definitions. It simply means desire, the same as the word lust. That’s why they can be used interchangeably in the Matthew passage.
@Horndog53
I appreciate your reply, and I'm glad for the things you shared.
I still have some reservations, but I don't think this is the place or time to push a debate about them.
One thing I'll note is that I don't believe these are issues of "contradictions" in scripture. They may be tricky issues to untangle, and different translations may unfortunately make those issues more difficult to figure out, but I believe there ARE answers that we can gather. As you correctly point out on lusting versus coveting, they are essentially the same word, or at least very closely related in the original languages, and should be understood as such. I think by knowing that, we're well on our way to having a more concrete answer. (A next step would be to understand exactly what "covet" means, and as JohnClancy mentioned here, I'm not one of those who believes that coveting definitionally involves an action plan. I simply don't see that indicated anywhere in scripture. But I'll tackle that in a different comment, since the topic has come up several places in recent days.)
I'll also note that, while legalism is indeed a serious problem that can inhibit our relationship with God, we have to be careful to discern the line between inappropriate man-made legalism and highly appropriate and necessary understanding and following of God's commands. Rule-following isn't legalism if they're God's rules. It's only legalism if man-made rules are getting in the way of God's design, or if we are "teaching as doctrine the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).
One thing I'm very grateful for is that these kinds of conversation reveal a need for me to know the scriptures more deeply, and provide motivation and opportunity for me to dig in and begin knowing them better! So thank you for being a part of providing this opportunity for my growth!
I don’t believe in the “need” model of sexuality. We need food, water, etc.
When sex is framed as a male need that a woman meets, it creates an unbalanced relationship. He may get more sex but it probably won’t be great sex. Great sex is from each person bringing their good to the bed and both being blessed.
Add Corey Allen, read his book Naked Marriage and his podcast http://www.smr.fm. Also Sheila Gregorie has great stuff to say about this.
NotMadMaX – Sex is a gift from God designed for enjoyment by BOTH the husband and wife. Men do need it to prevent health issues with the prostate and related organs, so he gave women something to help them enjoy fulfilling our need. I suspect you know this based on your second paragraph. If not, see my response to Steady89 for more info. Have a very Merry Christmas.
I respectfully disagree. A need is not limited to life sustaining. There are many things we need in life that we would not die from if we didn't have.
God created men as sexual beings. Biologically, we need to ejaculate. As I mentioned in my above post, every man is different. Some of us have stronger urges than others.
By the same token, I take issue with the unbalanced relationship aspect of your post. A man's greatest fulfillment is knowing he is pleasuring his wife. When sexual intercourse is viewed from that aspect, he will do everything in his power to make sure her emotional, physical, sexual, and spiritual needs are met as well, not just in the bedroom but also in every other area of life.
Thank you, LLL. Despite being in a low-sex marriage (which I've posted a few times about), I don't entirely agree, though I appreciate your sentiment.
I agree that sex is very important to most men. :-). But I also don't feel it is necessarily right to make that an rigorous obligation on wives….basically "put out, because your man needs it." Even though the two correspond to each other, they are two separate things. A person can want/need something but the other person may still not be able to deliver it.
Yes, there are certainly selfish wives who consciously use sex as a weapon. But I think there's a lot more wives who are like your mother; they find sex difficult but can't explain why or seem to overcome it. And to crank up the "men NEED it" just makes them feel worse.
I think the Christian world has made this too polarized. On one side you have women like the above saying that On the other side are women like Sheila Gregoire, who has really pushed back against the men need sex idea and how it traps women. I actually agree more with Gregoire but I think she pushes the pendulum too far the other way, and basically dismisses men's sexual needs, trapping them instead.
When my wife constantly turned me down and yet couldn't explain why or commit to improving our sex life, I used to get angry and blame her for being one of those manipulative vixens. And I shoved more than one "men NEED sex" article in her face. Over many years I have learned it is more complicated.
Again I appreciate your sentiment but those are my own hard-won thoughts.
I would like to make another quick post concerning YouTube videos.
I have found some channels that are dedicated to praying for marriage restoration. This has been a tremendous blessing and encouragement to me to continue hoping, praying, and having faith.
Some of these channels are:
Lovely Wives of Faith
Evangelist Fernando Perez
Restoring Relationships
Stand for Marriage
There are no guarantees in marriage for sure, people are fallible, and temptation is very real. But so are vows, charity and forgiveness, so are kindness and decency. There is real maintenance to a marriage. What do men need, what do women need, what does my spouse in particular need. How willing am I to fulfill those needs and incorporate them into my list of responsibilities?
Sex is very specific for men and yes, it is how we measure our partners interest, desire and need for us. You are right to see that as important. It’s one of the central ways in which we gauge a woman’s love for us. In the past 60 years or so, this need has been debased, made fun of and harmed by a movement that has the perspective that sex is some sort of burden and worse, that it can be denied to men in order to exert control over or punish them.
I know a few good men who are denied sex but stick to their vows. They are as heroic as they are miserable. No one should have to live that way. The women they vowed to love and cherish have no idea the quality of these men or the hell they are putting them through.
If a woman honors a good man, with respect, understanding and fulfills his needs, especially his sexual needs, he will cherish her, she will be the center of his universe. My wife and I have had 40 years of consistent, wonderful sex and look forward to many more. She fulfills my sexual needs (and then some). Yes, there are many other aspects to a healthy marriage, but I believe those grow from a solid foundation that begins with the fulfilment of our vows, chief among those is monogamous intimacy.
This is great. I will show it to Julia. Wives should be what their husband’s need them to be just as the man is to be the husband his wife needs him to be. And yes it should be hot and passionate and supportive, godly, and fun, free from inhibitions. Amen! -Roberto
Thanks you for this post, LLL. It is hard sometimes as a man. And I know women have their own set of struggles too, of which I try to do my best to educate myself. But it is disheartening to see those unique needs of males and females not being met, downplayed, or simply ignored.
It’s hard (sometimes literally no pun intended 😂) being a man. I understand why people are driven to cheat, sleep around, etc.. because living in a man’s body I know I could easily end up there myself if I gave in to my body’s animal instinct. And it’s almost a constant battle to have to subdue those urges, thoughts, etc. And right now being single it’s all on me.. I have no partner to give me help and support like a wife could. It would still be up to me, but she could help me just as I could help her with her unique needs.
I’m sure it still is tough when you’re married, but a wife with your attitude would help lighten the load in more ways than one 😉haha
This is a fantastic attitude to approach marriage with. I hope my wife will feel the same. I can tell you if my wife was persistently coming on to me and emptied my balls as often as she could.. I wouldn’t have the energy to even think about anything else. I think that’s not an accident too, to me it might be by design. I have noticed that when I’m horny that the longer I go without an orgasm my mind will start to wonder more and more.. and it gets harder to reel back in. Sometimes I’ll just go rub one out real quick just to blow my load and move on. I then find my mind calms back down and I can do on with my day with more focus. If I had a wife that wanted and desired to take my loads.. man that would be sooo much better.
So thanks for taking the time to learn this about males. I don’t think many women truly understand what it’s like to live in the male brain. You are going to make some man very happy one day. His heart will be happy and his balls will be empty 😂
Now to help me continue to learn more about women and their specific needs and desires.. what would you say is a similar issue women face that men might not easily understand?
I suppose it is always scary to enter marriage but that's why it should not be a hasty decision. The worst thing we can do is buy into voices trying to generalize the opposite sex.
I think I paid too much attention to popular culture as a teen and young adult trying to learn about "women". The articles were overwhelmingly written by bitter women who hadn't experienced orgasms. LoL.
Seriously, I quickly took on the belief that women weren't pleased in bed and didn't want to have sex with the long term boyfriends and/or husbands.
This is a falsehood. My actual experience is the opposite.
Yes! While I have experienced abuse firsthand by a man, I have also experienced the most tender genuine love from my now husband. There are bad eggs but that doesn’t mean all or even most men are bad.
I have witnessed more than a handful of relationships where the woman was dominating the relationship in such a way their partner was afraid of them.
Many women feel justified in manipulating and being cruel to good men under the idea that “all men are bad” and it’s disgusting honestly.
After hearing my husband’s experience with one such woman who went as far as to lie to authorities and have him arrested (luckily they let him go right away) I cried. I still feel upset when I hear of his former friends who left him becuase she lied about him being abusive to her.
I have experienced real abuse from a man and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt my husband never would hurt anyone. Especially not In any way that would qualify as abusive.i can’t help but feel immense anger towards her even when I know I should forgive her as a Christian.
I know his character, and I know that he is the most tender and caring person I’ve ever met.
Furthermore it makes me upset that women throw the word abusive around and feel comfortable lying to make men look bad when there is actual abuse going on in relationships. How can you treat something so serious so casually? It makes my blood boil.
I know that my lovely husband needs physical affection to feel loved but it doesn’t need to be sexual in nature. He craves touch and being close to someone. I fill his needs easily by cuddling him, playing with his hair, hugging him and kissing him. He is just my big teddy bear.
In regards to sex and frequency of sex, I would say that while it is more of a present factor usually for men, I wouldn’t say sex itself is as high of a need as simple physical connection of any kind, but we do have regular sex and I find this to be beneficial for both of us not just him!
DL – I can definitely relate to this. Thanks for sharing. You can find a little about this in my response to Steady89.
wow.. I'm so blessed to have not fallen in with such a woman..but I know from my friendships with men I've come clo to know, this certainly does exist..that there are some women that use sex to attempt to exhibit control in their marriage. Talk about a toxic relationship! I believe these are truly miserable women, that do not have happiness in their marriage.How much of this is the man's responsibility ? Some ? Most ? Any ? My guess would be that it is highly variable in every situation. It's complimentary that you've come to recognize this, and to take steps to avoid this type situation in your life & relationships. I pray you find a deserving mate to share your love.
I haven’t responded here for some time, but this really troubled me and I felt I had to. I enjoy your stories, and respect your passion and aspirations, but I really think you need to be incredibly careful with this mindset. Certainly there are a wealth of misogynistic social media channels out there, who will relish in projecting a picture of the downtrodden man, who isn’t getting enough sex. Some of this is fuelled by truth and painful back stories, and I certainly don’t deny that some women might use sex as a bargaining chip, but plenty of men do as well! There are both men and women on this forum who are in sexless marriages for a wealth of reasons. Sometimes, its due to past trauma, other times, the picture is much more complicated, but to reduce the issue to ‘female commitment and limitless sex equals bliss, is really simplistic and deeply problematic. Its very easy pre-marriage to imagine yourself as some kind of faith driven nymphomaniac, but when there is no money in the bank, when a man can’t be bothered to pick his clothes up off the floor, when a mother-in-law is toxic, when you have worked your fingers to the bone and aren’t seen, etc, etc, no amount of sex addresses these things! Such a mindset also seems to firmly place the responsibility on a female to nurture a marriage on her own, and provide sex on tap! The last time I checked, it took 2, and sadly, I know of plenty of women who have gone above and beyond to satisfy their husbands, to cook for them, clean for them, serve their sexual needs, only to still be cheated upon in the end!
I’m not saying you shouldn’t strive to be the best human/wife you can, according to your own principles, but do not place unrealistic expectations on yourself, nor should you assume that a limitless sexlife cures all ills in your marriage or in society! It is one tool in your tool box, it’s a very important one no doubt! But its not a magic bullet, so be very careful with the social media you consume and remember to stay practical and grounded, objective in all things. God bless you and keep sharing your amazing writings!
My dear Sir has explained to me that it can feel as if sexuality is a cure to his pains, especially so from the one woman the Lord has allowed him to love so closely and to lead with care and strength in his life.
This is true and yet he and I both believe that it is the ultimate responsibility of the individual to control desire – freedom from passions does not mean no feelings of desires but jot being slave to them.
Yes, a wife or husband denying their spouse can cause feelings of desire and pain and longing, but it is ultimately the individual’s choice to not act on them or think of doing so and to remain faithful.
Marriage is first to bring glory to and serve the Lord, our desires being lesser to this in our view, so perhaps our view is more “conservative” in that manner.
Your comments are spot-on. I'll be the first to agree that men need sexual intimacy and those needs are powerful and important to their physical well-being, their self-image and their psyche. But the denial of those needs doesn't justify the breaking of vows. Our ability to keep our vows is one of the true expressions of who we are before God and man.
Hi LLL,
I hope you are able to read my post. I just wanted to commend you first of all that you’re preparing for marriage so extensively like this!
Secondly, I’d like to offer that having lots of sex is not the be-all-end-all for a successful marriage, only one of many keys to one.
I’d like to point out that Vanessa and I initially didn’t have much in the way of a strong physical attraction to each other, but our friendship was strong. (Disclaimer: I have to admit I did sometimes jack off in private just because of how her large breasts moved and turned me on even before we were dating). But she really wasn’t my “sexual ideal” nor was I hers. Even after we started dating, a couple times we considered breaking things off and staying friends because we didn’t match the intense energy of most dating relationships. And yet we’ve built a great sex life in our marriage. And the sex has come fast and furious at times. I think that’s flowed out of a genuine love and care for one another, and good communication and closeness.
Not to mention there is something downright dirty and hot about fucking your best friend.
However, life happens and sometimes gets in the way and causes sexual droughts. I’ve had a couple of serious injuries where I couldn’t do much for a few days. Once I tried during my recovery and got really dizzy and had to consult my doctor. Other times, Vanessa has had problems with severe depression that just sapped her energy and desire at times. When you love someone, you work through those hard times and don’t cheat on them.
And frankly, although I’ve always stayed faithful to Vanessa, I’ve occasionally struggled with feelings of lust toward her sisters (not instead of Vanessa but in addition to her), and this really has nothing to do with our frequency of sex, but is just something I have to stand against and resist the devil about (see James 4:7).
I hope this helps encourage you, God bless and keep being you. You sound like an amazing and fun person and I am sure your husband will be a very blessed and happy man!
LLL – Great insights! I believe you will find your guy sooner than later. Maybe God was just waiting for you to make this realization so you would overlook Mr. Right. Blessing and have a very Merry Christmas!
Good comments. My belief is still the same. Yes, there are foul wretched women to avoid, but good women should avoid foul wretched men.
Thank you to everyone who replied! So enlightening and helpful. I want to clarify a couple things if I may. First, I am not advocating putting all the responsibility of sex on the wife, nor am I saying that men don't cheat even if the wife is giving out. My concern was directed at toxic women who abuse their husbands and use sex as a weapon. Obviously there are men who do that too, and I would venture to say that they are more predominant in the circles where "women are to be submissive servants to their husbands and give them sex every time they want it, no matter what". Both extremes are wrong. Biblically, the ideal is right in the middle, with both joyfully giving to each other and always seeking to put the other first. I am just realizing that I was unconsciously putting all the blame for cases of adultery or cheating or anything similar on men and not understanding that some women can be pretty cruel and drive men to do things. Not that that excuses the men (they do still have the choice to sin), but it explains it. I also pray that women or men who have had something in their past that messes up their sexuality can get help and healing, as in my mom's case. From everything I've researched so far, there are a lot of answers, but because of that ever-present stigma around sex in the church, people hesitate to go there. For instance, I know my mom would not approve of this site, if she ever came across it. But it's because of whatever happened to her to taint her view and mess with her body and mind. She needs professional help, which has slowly been happening. Prayers for her and my dad would be deeply appreciated. Anyhow, thank you all for the input. I learn so much here!
Merry Christmas to all!!
I awoke this glorious morning to the sweet memories of Christmas past and present. Then I followed my morning routine that ended with a check into MH.
In over eight years on MH, never have I seen so many responses, and lengthy ones at that, to a posting: 22 comments in 24 hours. Not just brief comments – thoughtful, lengthy, experiential comments. Agreeable. Different perspectives. Respectful.
Something in LLL’s Discussion topic hit a common hot button. Thank you, LLL!!
Often I recite my marriage vow – “I take you, Anne, as my wedded wife to have and to hold from this day forth for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, in love and to cherish, till death do us part.”
Marriage is about loving, cherishing respecting, caring, and faithfulness to each other. It’s mutual commitment and benefit.
Infidelity, walking way from faith in Christ, and abuse (physical and emotional) [I believe the Apostle Paul passage about husbands loving and wives respecting is about not tolerating abuse] are grounds for divorce.
Many marriages have struggles – relational, emotional, physical, spiritual, and sexual. These struggles are in degrees. Living in and through them vary by couple – emotional and relational and rational IQ play a part in each couple’s ability to navigate married life challenges and come out better or worse.
MH is a site primarily about sex. Sex, though, is not a stand alone aspect of marriage for many of us or for singles anticipating marriage. Sex is personal. Sex is committal to another. Out of marriage, physical sex with another person is not God’s design. Withholding sex within marriage is not ok (per the Apostle Paul passage on this topic).
Desired and fulfilling sex in a marriage is by degree and balance. It’s a two way street. It’s libido based. It’s giving and receiving. Withholding sex or using sex as a manipulative tool is wrong.
Struggling to enjoy, have, or give sex is understandable. It can happen for a season or be caused by a trauma. That’s when the marriage vow needs to kick in for both husband and wife. Easy? No. Essential? Yes.
Be encouraged MHers!!
I appreciate all the viewpoints and discussion here! As SilverGold said, LLL, you really seemed to touch on something that resonates with people, because there's a lot of thoughtful engagement!
I think there's one thing that people of all viewpoints can agree on: marriage is the best when both spouses follow the commands of the Bible, count one another as more important than themselves, and give 100%—everything that have—to love and serve each other.
In the end, BOTH spouses are responsible to love and serve one another, and the marriage suffers if either spouse is unwilling to give 100%. Each one of us individually can and must take responsibility for our half—as you seem eager to do, LLL, and praise God for that—but it's up to the other spouse to do their part. We can't do that for them. Sometimes they fall short, and sometimes they outright refuse, but we are still responsible to do our part either way. That's what a covenant is about. That's what marriage is about.
I pray for all the marriages represented here on MH—those that are thriving, and those that for all practical purposes are over—that all spouses would recognize their responsibility to love and serve, and do so with warmth, passion and excellence by the enabling grace of God.
Very interesting story you posted here. Jim and I, where we don't believe any couple is perfect, do believe in fully exercising our sexuality for our mutual. benefit. I truly believe that when my college roommate […] introduced me to Jim (my hubby and lover for 26 years now) it was a Godsend…literally. From our first date […] Jim and I were addicted to each other in every way conceivable – from the bedroom to great conversations with friends and other couples, to expressing our innermost fantasies to each other, and eventually acting them out.
Can you imagine your hubby surprising you on a regular basis by gifting you with an outfit that puts my god given tits on display for the right audience (one of my or his choice)?
Anyway, as you become more secure in your relationship some of your insecurities will vanish, and in the end you'll give and get more sex than you ever imagined – and he will ALWAYS cum back FOR MORE!!
[Edited by MH: MarriageHeat seeks to promote marriage-focused sexuality. Please keep discussions of unbiblical relationships or encounters restricted to discussion posts on such topics, or if it's relevant to a different discussion, at least refrain from mentioning them in a way that could be taken in a positive light.]
I believe three of the greatest obstacles for finding a spouse for a happy relationship include:
Searching for perfection
Unwillingness to compromise
Lack of self examination
I have had female friends and coworkers that spend their life searching for “Mr Right” and never realize they don’t exist.
I never knew it was such a big issue until recently.
Then seeing on youtube Christian women tell wives to have sex with their husbands.
Sex should not be used as act of power, but of love. Marriage is a gift to each other, including your bodies and sex.
There is a youtuber called, "Uncharted Catholic Man", who talks about the struggles of periodic abstinence to avoid pregnancy, Craig has nine children including a disruptive two year old.
It seems harder for the husband than for the wife.
It is one of the reasons I push the importance of masturbation for women. Studies support that women who masturbate are more comfortable with their sexuality, think sexual of their husbands more, have higher libidos, have better and more fulling sex lives.
Benefits for husbands as that their wives are happier and more interesting in sex.
A symptom of the disconnect between men and women I heard on a podcast. Wife is asked how often they are intimate, "a lot, couple times a week". Husband answers, "not much, couple times a week".
If you think, a couple times a week is a lot, there is a problem, and you need to do something about. Paul said to only separate for a short time for prayer – then get back at it. If for a time to avoid pregnancy, use your hand and mouth. Also spend time soloing.
This is one of the things I love about MarriageHeat.com that it is working to provide a healthier, more wholesome Christian sexuality.
Good bless and Merry Christmas to all.
I remember back when I thought masturbation was sin, and I was so fully loaded that a trash can with slightly feminine curves got me rock hard. That was when I realized it was only a matter of time until I wrecked more lives than just mine. Keeping your husband empty is important and it will make his life sooo much easier, but even with that he still has to control himself.
I was listening to pastor talk about Ephesians5, and I finally understood that a husband getting to present his wife to God is the logical conclusion of successfully letting God love her (leading, guiding, making her whole) through him. For me this has made dealing with random infatuation much easier.
Quite a thought provoking post, LLL.
I see in this thread a variety of perspectives, but the facts are Biblically clear.
God created a perfect world. An absolute paradise. And in that garden, he put Adam, the first man. In Genesis 2:18, God Himself said “It is not good that man should be alone.”
“NOT good.” Not “it’s not ideal” or “it’s preferable man not be alone.” Literally in a perfect, sinless state with no dangers, no sickness, no poverty, the one who designed the universe, saw a change that needed to be made.
Those words never changed, over all of human history. No advancement in art, culture, medicine and science changed it. In fact, one could argue in all of those disciplines that the attraction between the sexes and pursuit of love and yes, sexual intimacy, was a huge element. Erotic cave paintings, love songs, Viagra. It’s the core expression of our created design. To connect, love and yes, to mate. And it was God’s idea. Creation wasn’t complete without it.
And far from some sort of misogynist thing, and I’m the first to condemn men who are cruel or abusive or neglectful, it was actually a beautiful thing for women too. Eve was necessary! A key part of God’s ideal and plan for humanity. Nothing degrading in that. We were built to work together. And to be together.
Now, we obviously were designed to need each other. So which parts are needs? Companionship, partnership, sexual pleasure? Yes. All of them ARE needs. Because a healthy life and relationship as designed by God includes those things.
Just because you can survive without something does not make it not a need. We weren’t created to struggle constantly, achieve nothing and then leave this earth. We were created to live fulfilling, loving lives towards each other and have that returned. There is a difference between surviving and thriving, being alive and being healthy.
Humans are sexual beings. It’s the core difference between the sexes, the thing that drives us so much for better or for worse. Facing the facts, we are who we are created to be and can’t outrun that and expect to thrive. We can control it, in accordance with our faith, but to deny it, to surrender it, to ignore it and not have healthy acceptance of it isn’t just unhealthy – it’s disrespecting our Creator.
Just because one can cope not having love or sexual expression does not mean they don’t need it to have a healthy life. And no one’s excusing sin, but circumstances that aren’t healthy or natural or good exacerbate the pressure – like a vice closing in on both sides. If you’re poor, and can’t make rent or feed your kids, you’re going to be more tempted to rob the bank. And if you and the crime syndicate both rob a bank, you didn’t do it for the same reasons. One was desparation, one was greed. Doesn’t make stealing not a sin, but the circumstances are a part of the complete picture.
Christians often will try to avoid temptation by not discussing these things frankly in courtship, and then surprise! They get into marriage knowing very little about sex, addicted to porn, furtively masturbating in a guilt cycle, or find they have mismatched drives. And then struggle with communication, frequency, or temptation.
Or in many cases now, they give up on finding someone at all. Which itself… was not and is not good. Because it is not good (or natural) that man or woman should be alone. We need each other. All of each other, as it was designed from the beginning. I think we’ve moved away from that ideal in Christianity and allowed things to get confusing, and it was never meant to be. And a lot of people are hurting because of it.
LLL as always your attitude is refreshing! One of the things about getting as many perspectives as possible is that it more fully helps us understand where the issue actually lies, and there have been a lot of great perspectives shared here, each of them very valuable.
In my experience trying out Christian dating groups on Facebook, one of the things that stands out is how little people understand or try to understand the other side's perspective. So when someone posts videos from Emily W. King, there are likely to be a lot of responses from women who attack her for some reason or other, when they should be listening to all the men saying, "This woman gets us!" To your list of Youtubers, I'll add that the following have really helped my perspective:
Courtney Ryan
Sarah Dawn Moore
The Dadvocate
Alison A. Armstrong (she's more of a writer, find her books)
Justpearlythings
Some are good for men to watch, some for women. I like to find ones that I can recommend to any potential future wife as a great way to understand more about men.
I think that you have a good attitude, but I don't agree with it fully, because I've heard the "If I give him as much sex as he wants, then he won't stray" saying before, and while that's one part of it, it's not the whole thing. It's not just that MEN need sex, it's the marriage that does. As Shaunti Feldhahn puts it in SECRETS OF SEX & MARRIAGE, if marriage is like the engine of the car and sex is like the oil that keeps the engine running well. But Sheila Gregoire has a great perspective when she says that the obligation message given to women can be harmful, because it assumes from the start that women don't want sex.
And I really don't believe that the majority of women these days go into marriage assuming that sex is terrible and a necessary evil, nor are they planning on using it to control their husbands. Because if I did then I'd never get married. But the women who do get to that stage where they aren't having sex with their husbands, probably feel entirely justified in their decision, and that's probably where a lot of problems develop. And it goes far beyond sex.
To take a concept from Alison Armstrong, some women can kiss frogs into princes, but most women marry princes and turn them into frogs. I think that with more understanding and WILLINGNESS to understand the opposite sex better, and treat them in a way that communicates what you actually need, men & women wouldn't necessarily have the same level of problems. The sad truth is that most women don't know and most men don't care to try.
Being a child of divorce I could write pages and pages on this whole dynamic and your discussion post just scratches the surface LLL! But one of the big questions that I've wondered for years is, if a couple vows to love each other no matter what, does that include one of them testing that vow as fully as possible to see if they're lying?
I will say though, that I think I see a great similarity between your mom and my own.
Thank you for posting this LLL.
It’s true that many men are abusive, neglectful, and fail in their role as husbands in every way. It’s true that many men misread, misunderstand, and misuse the scriptures where it refers to marriage. It’s true that the stereotypical alpha male runs around and ruins lives. And it’s true that negative male influence gets a lot of attention.
Having said that, (and to your point), it’s also true that many wives are abusive, neglectful, and fail in their role as wives in every way.
There is less focus, (in my opinion), on the failure of wives. I think it has become so ingrained that men are toxic and women are good and pure, that it is almost impossible to convince some women that they can be the one at fault in a marriage.
To stay on topic, when it comes to lack of sex, using sex as a tool, or any sort of manipulation regarding sex, I’ll just say that I agree with your dad; daily life is a struggle.
There is no excuse for sin; everyone that sins is responsible for his or her own actions. But it’s also true that a spouse denying sex directly places their husband/wife into the path of temptation, and I don’t believe they’re off the hook when it comes to accountability.