Questions About What We See
This is our first post. We have been married over 50 years. While we do not have sex as often as we used to, it is still very regular. We have some very hot times. Reading MH stories definitely helps set the mood and enhance the experience.
Several posts mention that seeing other couples having live sex is enjoyable and is a turn on for their own experience. This leads to some questions.
Is it right or wrong to view someone else having live sex? How is that different than watching the same thing on a movie or video? Is one okay and the other not? I am not advocating for porn or voyeurism. I’m simply wondering how the MH community views this and would like some discussion.
Exactly my question. I'll be following this conversation closely.
Oldlovers,
Watching or being watched are two of my biggest fantasies. One of my favorites is accidentally catching some guy masturbating and secretly watch him cum. In the fantasy, the guy is generally faceless and has a larger than average cock. A lot of times that guy is my husband Ben, though in my fantasy we are not married. I love watching my husband beat off, it really turns me on.
I believe MH will have an advice column about such things coming up soon. So keep checking.
God bless and stay horny!
? GG
Actually, GG, this is the advice post we were referring to, an opportunity for input from the MH community on dealing with the fantasy of watching or being watched versus what to do in a real life situation, when and if it would be wrong to watch or be watched, the difference between seeing or being seen, planned or unplanned, knowing or not knowing, and how all of that differs (or doesn't) from watching (or even making) porn or erotic movies, and the issue of freedom in marriage versus what edifies. It's a deep subject with the potential for much disagreement, so we remind everyone to speak in love and not take differences of opinion personally.
I have many thoughts on this issue. My wife and I are Christians who have been married 35 years. We enjoy a sex life that sounds similar to your's, Oldlovers. Perhaps, to a greater or lesser degree, all of us reading and/or posting on Marriage Heat probably sometimes struggle with how far to take our sex lives as married followers of Jesus. I admit that I have strong temptations I fight daily concerning especially impure thoughts and/or actions. I love my beautiful wife of many wonderful years, and I would never wish to do anything to hurt her. I love to watch other people have sex. Nothing gets my wife more excited and wetter than watching others in this way. This has always been on TV, never in person. But, I am under conviction if I do watch this, and have repented many times. We have talked about watching other couples in person and how hot that would be. I do not see any difference whether we watch in person or on video. What is the difference? I feel all of that is beyond God's plan for sex in marriage. I am certainly not glorifying God in this practice. I am a stumbling block if I promote this to my wife who is also tempted, but able to easily stay away from this visual stimuli. I am not being holy as God is holy, and as He has called his children to be. I am giving in to my fleshly desires. All that said, I have sexual temptations to view other people having sex. To me it is trying to rationalize away my sin if I view any difference between live or video fulfilling of this temptation. As the Bible states, "Abstain from even the appearance of evil." I cannot justify the viewing of others as okay, in any fashion. I am doing much better than in the past, but temptations keep coming, and I keep praying.
I don’t view this as a right vs wrong thing. I can certainly say that some steamy sex scenes in movies have enhanced our lovemaking… maybe in the same way a glass of wine or background music might be an enhancement. I think each couple will find their own path. Some couples or individuals might have addiction issues and might need to avoid even PG-13 level stuff. While others might have more freedom. I don’t think there are blanket rules. My wife & I have never seen another couple making love in person… and likely never will… but also don’t think it is morally wrong (at least the tame versions in our head). We have definitely viewed erotic videos together and they are enjoyable and a turn on. We are not comparing ourselves to the couple on-screen, it’s just a fun spice added to the mix. Neither of us looked at erotica at a younger age (not really until 40), so we are able to enjoy without baggage from the past. We feel free but we don’t flaunt this freedom b/c we know others need to be more on guard (like alcohol, tobacco, etc).
While live sex could be XxxTremely exciting to me. Whew!! Just the thought. My flesh getting stirred up. Butt..
I do think it would be pyschologically damaging and Extremely addictive leading to ,a 3 some or 4 some.
We do have authority over Satan, but if we enter his territory? He can steal it.
I agree, in person would be much more tangible for compromise that could do lasting damage… The thought of 3 or 4some passed through my mind also, so not profitable for me/us.
For me, nakedness and the act of sex in marriage is 100% exclusive and reserved for the couple alone. I feel It is the one thing God ordained for just the couple to experience. Then why do I share stories on MH? Good question and I've wrestled with it (still am). I haven't fully reconciled my position but feel a story written for encouragement is a different beast than being present and watching it live. Just my opinion and I know others will see it differently but that's my take.
I don’t advocate porn because it’s not a loving married relationship. It’s not realistic and doesn’t usually treat the woman in a loving way. Would it be a turn on to see another couple? Of course. The previous story witnessing married sex was a really sexy story. It was also not something they planned. Yes, I thought that story was very sexy. I don’t feel in my Christian walk it is something I should do. I value my marriage too much to open that door of temptation. We’ve only been with each other; I don’t want to focus on what it could be with someone else. If I saw a friend though, it would turn me on and we would probably have wild sex after. But I think it would open the door to one of us comparing or imagining what it would be like with someone else. Could lead to contemplating swinging. Just think I need to keep those thoughts at bay. I am so happy in my marriage: the love, trust and great sex. I don’t think it would be worth venturing into that area. I have friends whose world has crumbled because one of them has cheated. Though they have stayed together, things are not the same. One of them still struggles with trust and it’s been years. I wouldn’t want to live with that fear. I know God can help them let that fear go; it’s just hard to see them struggle.
SH,
You have true wisdom. I wrote a comment on this story early this morning. I guess I will see if it is approved or is edited by MH.
I agree with Southernheat, and also take that a step further as to (personally) checking myself and intentions. MH has been an incredible resource and I will not judge others, however I find myself at times leaning towards fantasizing over some of the stories, and quite frankly and honestly some of the female authors. I do wonder how others handle this – thankfully we serve a risen and forgiving savior! – but perhaps this will cause others to pause for self-reflection and, if necessary, ask God to purify their hearts once again. I know I need to…
Thanks Southernheat. I feel the same.
I think both are sinful in the context of titillation or seeking arousal – there would be obvious exceptions for other purposes (for example, my friend who’s a LMFT had courses in grad school where they watched videos of people having sex to understand aspects of human sexual response). And, really, I think watching another couple without their awareness or consent is ethically worse than porn – at least the people in porn understand that they are being watched.
Good Question.
I find myself having two impulses in this department.
1) The idea of watching, or being watched, is ridiculously hot, and I find stories with that element really work for me. The wife is the same way.
2) Fences and boundaries exist for a reason, and I would not be so quick to feed this fantasy often, nor would I seek it out in real life. To me, this gets pretty close to swinger “soft swap” territory and I don’t need that kind of complication in my marriage or my life.
I love me some erotic fantasy. I really do. But I’m still a penguin at heart. I intend to monogamously pair-bond for life. And I’m willing to forgo some extra fun if it means guarding that and keeping it sacred.
This is a tough one for myself. I would love to watch another couple play. On one occasion my wife and I saw a very young couple having sex in there car right in front of the mall ,we had parked right next to them and realized what was going on as soon as we got out of our car. Didn't see really any skin they were just finishing up. My wife and I commented to each other about it. I have struggled with porn for over 30 years as a Christian. The guilt of it all , hiding or trying to hide it from the wife. I have asked forgiveness with a repentant heart not wanting to fall into the trap again. . I like watching. 2 bodies together in the sexual act; as far as the touching kissing, the desire in the eyes and what the woman is willing to do in the video, facials, swallowing and or even anal; to me this is a hot fantasy. Something My wife will probably never do My wife has watched videos to get more into the mood, and yes the physical part gets better when she watches , but the emotional or spiritual or the closeness I desire when being with my wife goes unfulfilled ,because we are watching the screen and not paying close attention to each other. I think if we just happened upon a couple having sex , as opposed to purposefully looking for something to happen. Its the mind set, and the hearts desires that we need to protect for my wife and I. Tough call on this one . ToHimbetheglory.
As much as part of me would want to see obviously, I couldn't stand up and tell other's it's ok and I couldn't tell myself it was ok.
There's a saying by some wise person that says. ….Before you remove a fence think long and hard about why it was put there in the 1st place…..
My experience with porn, soft and some hard, bikini videos, beach " activities" glamour, nudes, this site, etc etc is that it's NEVER enough. The human eye is never satisfied. Watching others is an extremely slippery slope with voyeurism, exhibitionism and swapping just at the door. Besides all the comparisons, jealousy, one spouse wants to continue and not the other, etc. that can pop up. It is "fire in your lap".
Having said that, accidentally seeing a couple for 10 seconds a ways off behind some rocks at the beach while walking by is different than having same room sex with someone or purposely seeking out and spying and watching the whole thing. Or accidentally seeing it and staying to watch it all. Probably one of my biggest concerns is that it's never enough.
I think this website demonstrates that… as the boundaries keep moving further out. At some point, we have to say, "I will not go there."
I say this as one who's married and is as horny as the next guy and am dealing with all this myself.
Perhaps we all need to help each other to set boundaries rather than encourage the pushing of them further and further out.
Watching is bringing others into our bedroom, literally or emotionally and mentally.
Other questions to ask ourselves:
What real healthy benefit is there to seeing this?
What effects will result or could it cause?
What risks are involved?
Does the Holy Spirit in me encourage me to continue watching?
etc.
Though I am a woman, I am one who is tempted like you. It is easy for me to transition from one form of stimulation to a similar but less beneficial one. But I don't know if it's fair to compare watching others have sex – whether live or on video – to the "fire in the lap" passage in Proverbs 6 that warns against committing adultery with another man's wife.
Yes, the Bible says that "the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear filled with hearing" (Eccl 1:8), but in the context of the neverending cycle of life. Still, I believe discontentment is a heart issue. We have to cultivate contentment, (but that doesn't mean we can't seek change. Just that we are satisfied whether we get it or not.) If watching or reading or anything breeds discontent in our heart, we need to address that.
But do we do well to set boundaries for each other based on our own weaknesses, assuming that they are universal to all? That said, I think your questions for ourselves are good ones and can help us set personal limits. Absolutely, we should follow the Holy Spirit and our convictions. To my understanding, though, our marriage bed is pure – and kept pure – as long as it physically contains only the two of us. Within those boundaries, anything that falls within the law of love is ours to enjoy. I do believe that watching may fall outside that law for some.
Great thoughts here…
For me, watching others live is something for fantasy only, not real life – at least not on purpose. But that's because I know my own weaknesses. Having engaged in swinging early in our marriage, I fear it would be too easy for me to transition from watching to touching and then to more. Of course, I know better than to do so, having suffered the consequences. But in the heat of the moment, I doubt that knowledge would hold me back. So I put protections in place while I'm cool-headed, trying to avoid situations where such temptations are likely to occur.
But I found Dez's story completely innocent and loving, as well as similar older ones by lttlb and others. I don't assume that everyone has the same temptations as me. Just seeing my best friend make love with her husband from a distance, accidentally, probably would do nothing more than turn me on for my husband and make me happy for them. Sex between spouses is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, and praiseworthy… It's something I feel no shame in thinking on (though, of course, not all the time.)
I wouldn't even take issue with watching films that featured exclusive married couples *as long as* I didn't find myself longing for either of them or dissatisfied with my spouse for not being like them. Then it's not building up my marriage. "All things are lawful, but not all things build up." And not if I found myself dependant upon them for arousal. "All things are permissible, but I will not be a slave to anything." Still, I can't go looking for it because I find myself distracted by all the stuff I don't want to expose myself to. Unmarried couples, multiple partners, same-sex partners, etc. are all stumbling blocks for me, not the pure things I want to think on. So it's best for me to forgo the pleasure.
If I unexpectedly came across strangers having sex in public or my neighbor's noisy sex drew my eye momentarily to their uncovered bedroom window, I would assume they meant to share and would not feel I had invaded their privacy, nor would I be scandalized by the vision. I don't believe it would be a sin for me to have seen and enjoyed. But others might.
I find this to be a very interesting topic. Personally, while in one sense it would seem very erotic to view someone else in person (same room), the reality for me is I wouldn’t enter that space. Why? Mostly because as sexy as I may view another person, couple, act, it would just simply be too awkward. My fantasy is my wife, so I would be turned on to touch my wife, not them, and not in front of “them” in person.
All of that said, strangely enough I would probably think differently if “the viewing” was through a window (I.e., hotel window) I’d find it very exciting. To that end I don’t find this to be invading privacy to the extent that maybe others do. Why? I am reminded every time my wife and I are going to have sex to make sure the shades are closed, including last week on an anniversary (25 yrs) trip. That’s almost trained my thinking, rightly or wrongly, to think that people who don’t pay attention to shades/windows, may not care (or want) someone to watch. Again, probably poor fantasy rationalization on my part but…
Some of my favorite fantasies are of being watched and watching. That's as far as I would ever go with it. If I accidentally came across a couple making love, then sure it would be hot and turn me on. It would turn me on for my husband Ben.
I have absolutely no desire to be with anyone else ever. I am 110% committed to my husband till death do us part.
I see nothing wrong with having fantasies about watching or being watched. But these type of fantasies are best left as fantasies only.
Ben and I enjoy sharing our fantasies with one another. A few we have enjoyed acting out, others were not as exciting to act out, as they were in fantasy.
As Christians, I believe we need to know our own weaknesses and boundaries. We always need to keep in mind what God says. Sexual temptation is a very strong weapon the devil will use to bring us down.
We all love and enjoy MH. Ben and I most definitely do. Let's be honest; we are all voyeurs and exhibitionists in a way. We enjoy sharing our passion and lovemaking with others on this site. We also enjoy and yes, masturbate while reading about, other's marriage heat.
We also do it to build up our own marriages, while also hoping to encourage others to enjoy the fruits and pleasures of monogamous sex.
Monogamous sex is by far the hottest sex. Because unlike one night stands or porn, a true commitment of love and trust are involved.
I write my stories about Ben and me out of a true, deep love I have for him and our marriage. I also hope they inspire and encourage others to do the same.
Basically, fantasies such as watching or being watched really should be kept as fantasies in my opinion.
I honestly don't know if what I said makes any sense at all. If it doesn't, I truly apologize. I don't mean to ramble!
God bless you all! Much love and Stay Horny always!
?? Gina ( GG )
Several of you have said things I’ve been thinking on this topic. Namely, that some fantasies should remain just that, fantasies. Anything that directs us away from the marriage should be avoided. The question is, for any one person or couple, does it?
Now, I have fantasies that I know I’ll never get the chance to fulfill, mainly because I’ve not found a way for me to fulfill them without sinning. One fantasy that I’ve had dates back to my early teen years. But I know for me, it will remain just a fantasy. For me, I’m drawn to watching. That would be a big temptation for me. Not so much that it would prompt me to go outside of our marriage, but more that my attention would be focused on someone other than my wife.
That has been, as I’ve understood it, the boundary that MH ascribes to. It is almost anything goes, as long as it stays within the bounds of one’s own marriage. That would mean that if one couple could watch erotic videos and find it an enhancement to their marital focus, more power to them. My only concern would be that some would take it as permission to go where they are not able to maintain that marital focus. IOW, if you play with fire, eventually you can get burned.
And if you think, “It could never happen to me,” that is when you are the most vulnerable. I know, because it happened to me. I thought it would be a cold day in hell before my wife or I would ever cheat on one another. Then one day, around eight years ago, hell got really cold when I discovered my wife of 29 years had cheated on me. She played with fire because she thought she could handle it, but then got burned with lust, and it all went downhill from there.
Each of us needs to evaluate what we can honestly handle, what fantasies would enhance our marriages and which ones would destroy it by pointing out attention to those outside our marriages.
Reading each other’s fantasies and stories here on MH is different in large degree to watching it “live” on a screen or in real life, since the latter is much more passive than the former; in one’s imagination, it takes more active thought to “see” it in your mind’s eye. And then, the chance is that what you would visualize would be more like your spouse rather than the reality for the storyteller. It wouldn’t be the same as passively watching real people do it on screen.
Those are my thoughts as they’ve developed thus far. You’ve all made some good points, I believe, and I’ll, of course, continue to follow any further developments. Only keep in mind that this coming weekend, I’ll be moving into a new apartment, so may not have much spare time to drop in here for a chat. 🙂
[MH does not recommend the use of pornography either before or during marriage. Neither do we publish stories or comments that describe its use, though we have made room for honest, non-erotic discussion about it in advice posts and their comments. Our boundaries for written contributions are outlined in the guidelines; but generally speaking, they are: safe, sane, consensual, loving sexual activity exclusive to husband and wife. We don't consider describing what one unexpectedly sees or hears to be non-exclusive.]
Watching and being watched while having sex is a fantasy that my wife and I enjoy as well. As nudists, we see plenty of naked flesh and that is attractive, but not to the point of actual lusting to possess another person or include them in our sexual relationship. It's ok for us to look, just no sexual touching, is our rule. The idea of performing for another couple is a fantasy for us, but it's probably best left at that. Presently, I'm writing a fantasy story that I hope to submit soon, and I look forward to the comments it may generate.
I read some previous posts here on MH where someone said that there's nothing wrong with enjoying naked pictures of women and watching straight sex videos. I don't know about this. But for me, sometimes I enjoy watching women masturbating and websites that dedicate their work to the female orgasm. They say that it's about educational purposes, and I actually I like it! Jesus says that anyone who looks a woman with lust he already committed adultery. Some Christians say that this verse only applies for married ppl… This is such controversial stuff.
HB, I know the comments you are referring to. Suffice it to say not all agree. But as I read it, that verse says that if you look at a *married* woman and desire to have sex with her, you've sinned in your heart already before you've made the first move toward her. Not many men would marry a single woman that they didn't desire to have sex with, now would they?
I think the majority of the guidance has been to instead focus your imagination on the wife of your future rather than random women on a screen. And the women in porn are very likely not in your pool of potential marriage candidates.
Learning how to give your future spouse the most pleasure you can is a worthy goal, in my opinion. But porn has the potential to set a young person up with some very unrealistic expectations from a new lifemate. I would also caution you not to let your "education" become an excuse for excessive self-pleasure that keeps you from getting to know and building healthy friendships with the single ladies around you. One of them might be the one you woo to marry you, but you'll need more than sex techniques to do so or to build a marriage that lasts. Be sure to study up on the emotional and interpersonal side of strong Christian marriages, too.
Thank you, CHL; you are right, and I agree with you. But what I watch – according to their websites – is not porn. In fact, the women that appear are normal women masturbating. I'm watching these videos to learn how to give the most pleasure humanly possible to my future wife. And yes, I try to hang out with women from my church and non-Christian women, too. I'm in the process of healing right now. Four months ago, I broke up with my girlfriend of two years. I thought I was going to marry her, but anyway…
This website has helped me a lot. I'm just thankful to God for this forum!
Like others, I thought Dez’s story was very hot and erotic. Watching a close friends having married sex is a fantasy that I have but will likely not happen.
A huge difference in my mind between what they observed and watching porn is that Sarah and Chad are in a sacred marriage covenant and enjoying the gift of sex as God intended. Like so many stories here, it illustrates what a close intimate relationship a married couple can enjoy integrating mind, soul, and body. To witness such a beautiful relationship without any cross interaction between couples is very intimate in itself. They, especially Dez, already knew the depth of their physical love, but was able to accidentally experience it.
I agree too about the boundaries pointed out in several comments. We always have to keep a guard against Satan’s deception to twist, distort, and deceive something God created as beautiful and also be convicted not to cross the boundaries of the marriage bed.
To observe close friends as they did (especially accidentally ) – not just unmarried, uncommitted, paid actors as in porn —would have heightened our love making and commitment as it did theirs.
Great discussion, I applaud everyone’s honesty and feedback. In the case of this story, I don’t believe any sin was committed as it was not planned, it was unintentional, by accident. It was hot and I think most readers enjoyed it. Now porn is another issue, it is intentionally viewed and the people involved are not married. That is my ethical opinion.
Watching another couple have sex would be erotic, while it may or may not be wrong, not to judge, it does leave the door open to swinging. Swinging could be very damaging to your marriage. That is why God gave us the wisdom to have a boundary. Not worth the risk to lose your spouse over a few moments of pleasure, don’t test the boundary. Can couples fantasize and talk about it, that needs to be decided by the couple based on what they are in agreement on.
My wife & I were having sex one time in our bedroom. We didn’t know it, but a friend was outside and watching the show! This friend is my best friend of 25 plus years. He had recently been through a rough divorce. After we finished, he rang the doorbell (as I said, we didn’t know he’d dropped in). I invited him in & he said, "I have to confess, I watched you guys go at it." We appreciated his honesty & it hasn’t done anything to our relationship. And that’s not the first time we’ve been watched but it was different being watched by someone we know.
I'll take a counterintuitive position here and say that watching and being watched is not only okay, but good. I believe that our sexuality needs to be given healthy outlets without so many of the taboos that lead us to do things secretly or deviantly. I've never had the opportunity to watch or be watched because it's far too embarrassing for people like my wife and I who are discreet and afraid of offending others to bring up. But the truth is that if another couple offered, I would say yes in a heartbeat and I'm sure it would be wonderful. It would only add spice to our marriage. The problem is shyness and upsetting social norms, which are legitimate considerations. But I don't believe that couples allowing themselves to be watched by people they trust is sinful.
I'm glad we're all re-examining these boundaries, specifically about watching other people (married or unmarried) having sex, whether that'd be on video (visual erotica/porn), in person or just fantasizing about it.
Judging by the feedback, obviously there are many schools of thought on this. Although the "thoughts" are what seems to be mostly uncertain subjectivity.
I've read everyone's input leading up to this comment, and I agree with, well… everyone.
I think the main takeaway is that where you and/or your spouse decide to draw the line is not a right or wrong answer.
There are, however, these universal "borders" that I think all of us agree on in regards to sex within marriage here at MarriageHeat.
#1 Belief and faith in Christ
#2 Sanctity of Marriage (1 man, 1 woman)
#3 Sex exclusively with your spouse.
Anything beyond these parameters, I think really comes down to a matter of preference and not a question of whether you strictly should or shouldn't do something.
In our marriage, my husband and I like to entertain the idea of watching/being watched among many other scenarios or fantasies, although we've never gotten the opportunity to experience this. It hasn't ever come our way, and it's also not in our current ability to try to experience. It would just be too sketchy.
We both do enjoy watching visual erotica/soft core porn on occasion, but only together. We've found that it's not a stumbling block for us. It may or may not be that way for you.
We do tend to stay away from harder core porn just as a preference. Yes, threesomes, foursomes, girl-on-girl, and the like are included in what we enjoy watching together, and it may or may not suite your personal preferences if you do enjoy watching visual erotica/porn. I do think it would be more beautiful and most times preferable to watch other real married couples having raw, hot, passionate sex on camera. Something that I hope comes much sooner than later.
For me, when I've done this, I can't help but feel the Lord is not pleased with me for taking pleasure in the sinful behavior of another. Oh, yes, it's hot. But then I remember that "Love finds no joy in unrighteousness but rejoices in the truth." (1 Cor. 13:6)
The truth is God commanded that sex take place between a man and his wife. When I watch unmarried couples have sex, or couples inviting others to whom they are not married to join in their play, I'm enjoying their unrighteousness. Instead, shouldn't my heart be breaking? Shouldn't I be praying that they would discover and embrace God's truth in their whole lives, including their sex lives?
Fantasy is one thing. It's make-believe, not something I actually want to do. But feasting on what I *know* to be sin is quite another. I pray that my conscience will not be seared, cauterized as in 1 Tim 4:2, against the truth and start making up my own rules. He gave us so much to freely enjoy within our marriages. Like Lila says, I'd much rather focus on the beauty – and hotness – of that.
Good points, CHL. Honestly, this is one of the reasons why we don't very much like viewing hardcore porn. I don't think that I myself or my husband are opposed to "porn." Even though associating with that word and using it makes it seem like a dirty or bad thing. It sort of automatically brings a negative connotation which is a bit of a shame. I prefer to use the words "visual erotica," or "erotic videos." I think it paints a much better and more accurate picture. I use these words "porn," and "erotic videos/visual erotica" interchangeably, even though I do prefer using one over the other just because of the taste "porn" leaves in your mouth.
I think a lot of us can agree that we're not wholly against the idea of watching naked people having sex on camera. I'm not convinced that God has ever asserted in scripture that merely looking at people having sex is a sin or sinful, and I still have yet to see any scripture proving otherwise. Mind you that I'm not saying that it can't be sinful. I think CHL and I both agree on this. I do think that viewing porn/visual erotica can be a beneficial and good thing, but I also think that it can be a negative thing. It's really circumstantial. Of course, an obvious analogy would be like alcohol, or…. Sex!! Hey, who would've guessed?
My husband and also I myself actually have come to take great pleasure in anything sexy and erotic. It's a pleasure we've come to be able to share together, instead of just focusing on what we do to each other physically. We actually probably look at more erotic images than we do erotic videos/porn. It really ignites chemistry between us, not only our physical but also our emotional connection, when we get turned by another person's body and/or what they're doing and wearing.
As a younger woman myself, I admittedly take pleasure in being able to admire and appreciate other women's bodies and how beautiful God made them. The female body is something incredibly beautiful, attractive, and erotic, even coming from myself as a woman. With the buzzword "porn" and the thoughts it brings into your head aside… I think erotica whether it'd be written, images, or videos, is immensely beautiful, sexy, and artistic. And in my opinion the most beautiful and superior form of art… God's creation of the human body and sexuality.
CHL mentions 1Cor 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
While I believe each believer must know their own boundaries before the Lord, and should never violate those, I agree with many who believe looking at some erotic videos can be done without "rejoicing at wrongdoing." We enjoy a small amount of this kind of imagery, and we know that many of those presenting are not married to each other, (neither are TV actors who kiss one another on stage) but do not rejoice in the wrong of their having sex with someone who isn't their spouse; we rejoice in their enjoyment of sex, in our enjoyment of sex, and in seeing sex performed in an erotic manner. We 100% support monogamous married sex and keep sex itself between ourselves alone, but at times we enjoy seeing others (even unmarrieds) enjoying sex with each other and recognize that enjoying sex is a wonderful thing, so the problem doesn't lie in "the sex" they are having but their having it with someone who isn't their spouse. Sex is sex, and sex is a wonderful gift from God, but sex outside of marriage is generally more destructive than constructive, so God disapproves of it and we agree with His assessment. We believe that if couples share erotic imagery together and can enjoy it without causing them to be tempted towards sex outside their marriage or towards a compulsive use of it, then that is between themselves and God. We also respect those who refuse to watch TV at all because they fear even watching actors fondle over their clothes those who are not their spouses in real life and is rejoicing in unrighteousness. Each of us process life through the lens of our relationship with Jesus, our study of His Word, our prayer life, and the wisdom shared by others, and we don't all come to the same conclusions. This is normal. For some who see a woman with her nipples protruding from her tee shirt causes them to stumble, while others can see a couple through a Motel window enjoying sex and experience no significant temptation to knock on their door and ask to join them. No two people are the same, and thus God left the areas we are talking about here not discussed directly in Scripture so that each of us would go to Him directly and discover his permissions or restrictions based on His personal knowledge of our capacities for erotic experiences. So, I am not encouraging anyone here to violate their inward limitations…respect those always…but I recognize, according to Romans 14 that not all experience limitations the same as other people. God will guide each one…
Fantasies also take part in our sex life, as well as our own individual sexualities. It's something that I actually think has contributed greatly to our marriage and our sex life, as we've both come to more intimately know and understand each other that much more than from before. I feel we're much more intimately connected and dialed into each other's minds and sexual psyche as individuals but also as one flesh.
We don't have an obligation to set limits as far as our fantasies go. Some of our sensual fantasies are a bit more risqué and raunchy than others but might be less favorable for some. But to each is own I would say. For us it's a mutually satisfying and arousing experience to get taken up into a very vivid, and very naughty sexual fantasy. Often times the erotic fantasies are exceedingly naughty and when we're conveying them for each other, they're described preferably in more graphic detail.
Suchlike activities and scenarios are that of which we wouldn't or simply couldn't experience in actuality but get to experience and explore in the realm of sexual fantasy and steamy eroticism. Amongst some of these erotic fantasies are sex episodes of multiple sex partners, same-sex partners, cheating, and almost endless other scenarios and sexual adventures.
I don't feel like there is really a disagreement between at least most of us. I think we all just have our own personal boundaries/preferences, and what we're most comfortable with. But if you feel you need to draw a line at a certain point, I think it would be best if you do so.
In closing, I would love to hear feedback from anyone on any of this. How does your sex life and thought process on voyeurism, porn, and fantasizing compare? Perhaps my husband and I are more expressive and imaginative in these aspects of our sex life and sexuality than some of you couples out there? I hope I've contributed to you and your marriage in some way by sharing this with you, and I hope it was thought provoking.
The biblical texts…
Romans 13:13-14
Ephesians 4:17-19
1 Peter 4:3-4
Colossians 3:5
And Galatians 5:21
… all include references to the first century practice of things like orgies (but not just orgies), wild parties, etc, where people had sex in front of others, ‘carousing in broad daylight,’ ‘sensual indulgence’ ‘a flood of dissipation with a continual lust for more’ etc.
These verses all capture the culture at that time which is seen as immoral by the New Testament writers and by the Jewish people more generally. It’s a culture we are quickly heading back to as western society.
Has anyone done a study on all this? It seems to me the idea of sex in front of others as a planned thing is a similar kind of thing. It would be great if someone who has studied these verses to share their insights. I would have thought watching this kind of thing online is the same kind of thing. And of course you are supporting it financially (or whatever) by watching it. The New Testament seems to instruct Christians to run a mile from this stuff. Does anyone have more knowledge of that culture and these texts?
If anyone has studied these passages and the culture, it would make a great Advice Offered post!
I have a theology degree, and the bottom line is that it’s tricky to draw hard-fast rules that apply to every situation. The description of the orgies, for example, was a condemnation from participation. It would be a stretch, I believe saying that this would mean a situation like the posted story would be sinful. In fact, most people were in an arranged marriage by the time they were 16. So when we read condemnations on things like orgies, homosexuality, lusts, and immorality— I have culturally always read that as a general condemnation against adultery, not specifically calling out each act. All of these acts imply that you are doing them while married and behind your partner’s back. Also culturally, we are used to a lot more privacy today. You were probably wealthy if you even had a front door to your house. And likely no one ever had a bedroom door or sealed windows. I’m not drawing any “right vs wrong” conclusions by this, but I think it’s fair to say that the cultural context was far less “private” than the one we live in today.
I've had questions similar to those raised by others here, and I'm far from an expert. It does occur to me that context could be important, as many of these practices (not that I'm endorsing them) were also culturally tied to pagan ritual and idolatry. Similarly, while we're all pro monogamy, I also noticed that one of the harshest criticisms of Solomon taking more than one wife was that he had married women who had "turned his heart toward other gods." So the acts aren't the only aspect, it's also that they were focused on immoral and debauched value systems. While the acts may also be immoral on the face of it, the context also wasn't Christian.
Exegetical Advice Offered post by 1blessedman coming up in two days — stay tuned.
Great topic to keep alive judging by the number of responses. I think watching or being watched is fine. Joining in is most likely crossing the line.
All these are very interesting comments…I’ve enjoyed reading them and thought I’d share beliefs as well. To begin with, I believe that we should examine this topic as we would with any other by by studying the context and theme throughout the Bible. By that I mean that we take all the related verses and string them together to get the full understanding. For example, Stag On A Hill made mention of some verses in the New Testament. One of those verses was Galatians 5:21. If we read that verse alone, we might think that intoxication in any form might be wrong. But if we study we study the context of the Bible, we know that drinking, in and of itself, in moderation, is not wrong. It becomes wrong when we do it in excess. The biblical definition of drunkard is “staying near”. So if we live to drink, then we are sinning. If we examine the topic at hand in the same sense, then we can begin to fully understand what this means for us as Christians. So taking the verses mentioned earlier, along with the other verses in the Bible and In read the Greek definitions, the theme is excess, or as Strong’s defines it as “Unbridled lust”. It is also my understanding and my opinion that lust is different than arousal. If I view the pictures here on MH, or read the stories, I can become aroused, but that doesn’t mean that I am lusting. So nudity, sexual acts, erotic stories can be arousing, but that doesn’t mean that I want the person in the picture or story for myself. The picture of the nude woman on “Learning to Communicate” is arousing, but that doesn’t mean that I want “her”. If that arousal is directed toward my spouse, then I have not sinned. In addition, it is my opinion that reading these stories here on MH is not really any different, in context, than actually viewing the act. Some of the depictions are very descriptive. These descriptive depictions form an image in the mind. Even though the images formed in my mind of “the glistening wetness on the folds of her pussy”, probably don’t really look like “her” pussy, I still have that image. Having that image doesn’t mean that I want “her” pussy, it is just simply arousing. So, in my opinion, seeing it in person wouldn’t be that much different than picturing it as I read the story. Again, the theme is excess and context. We are human beings and hardwired as human beings. The things that arouse us are the things that arouse us. It is how we carry ourselves and conduct our behavior as we serve our living Savior. Again…my opinion ?
I agree that one can be equally aroused by either an image created in one's mind from a written story or by seeing real people doing it. And arousal itself isn't sinful. The point I was making between the two types is that it is much easier to fall into lusting when viewing real people doing it. Note, I'm not saying that one *will* fall into lusting. Only that it is much easier to lust after a real body and person on the screen than an imaginary one created in your mind by a story. At least, for me it would be much harder. To covet someone else's wife would mean that you are coveting a real person. Not merely one created in one's mind.
That said, I do think it is possible to lust/covet another person's experiences through writing, by saying something along the lines of "Boy, I wish I was married to someone who would do that to me."
Or even the person behind those acts.
Of course, whether one is lusting or simply being aroused by watching another couple have sex, either through actual voyeurism or on screen, is a personal line that each person has to draw. But, for myself, anything that would pull my attention and focus away from my wife and toward someone outside of our marriage is the boundary line I would draw. Each person would have to define that boundary for themselves, whether it helps or hurts their marriage bond.
Scripture on this is Matt 19, where Jesus says that from the beginning, marriage was designed to be between a man and a wife, having sex and as a consequence, they have the very real, even if not ever realized, potential for the two to become one in a child, thus creating a bond that makes the two into one flesh, when sex happens. For that reason, they will leave their families to start a new one, through the procreative act and sacrament of sex. Jesus says a man and a women (not more than one but *a* man and *a* woman), so it is something private between the two people.
That said, if I stumbled upon an act in the progress, I don't think I would have committed a sin. However, if I stayed and continued to watch, then I feel it is no longer accidental on my part. And believe me, I would be very tempted in that scenario to stay and watch.
Personally, I am a private person. I don't think it would turn me on to know I was being watched, and I would be embarrassed to be watched, especially by someone I knew. Other than my wife "catching" me masturbating. There were times when I knew people knew what we were doing, but to my knowledge, no one has ever watched us in the act. Sort of like the few times my wife has watched me masturbate, it is much more difficult for me to have an orgasm with her watching me. I don't know the mental dynamics going on in my head–I don't have any objections to her watching. But for me, for whatever reason, it isn't a turn on for me. Not the same as it would be for me to watch her masturbate for me. But, I'm a strange cookie in that regard, apparently.
Thanks Nashoba, I guess the question then is ‘what is excess?’ These verses might shed light on that. I think deliberately having sex in front of others is an obvious candidate for the charge of it being in excess! (Not moderation). And having others actually there with you when you are having sex and they are maybe having sex too… is profoundly different than reading stories on here ‘cos you are in a relationship with those who are actually present.
Thanks, PacMan yeah, I too have a theology degree and pastor a church. Yeah there was definitely less privacy possible in first century societies. I think we can worry too much about getting caught in the act (as Clmaxx pointed out a long time back). However I agree with MH (as I understand it) that accidentally getting caught having sex or coming across someone having sex isn’t the same as actually planning it. It isn’t a long bow to suggest that planning it and having sex in front of someone is the kind of revelry and ‘indulgence of the flesh’ the New Testament is talking about in these verses… and we are being warned to have no part in that. Actually to flee it. Partly because it is bringing another couple into that intimate space that is only for you and your wife… which yeah… IS akin to adultery.
Watching pornography is a similar issue – we are, in a sense, (but to a lesser degree), bringing others, and the images of others, into our intimate relationship – especially if we are masterbating to that, or using it as fuel for sex with your wife. To stumble across porn or to occasionally see it for maybe informational reasons might be different, but to have a practice of using porn in our sexual relationship with our spouses seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Especially, I would have thought, if that porn has group sex and threesomes.
Also the context of all these verses is idolatry, including the worship of sex. So the question for us is, Why do we need pornography or sex in front of others, or viewing others? Why the drive to that when we have all we need in Christ and his provision of simple marriage. I have found that the more I am actively serving Jesus and pursuing his kingdom, obeying what he commands, the less I am interested in things like porn etc.
The same questions can be put to using MH. To use it for information and celebration of the great gift of sex is great – to learn and grow… but my view is (and I know many of you disagree with this) I think masterbating to the stories puts it in a different category. For me, that has more the flavour or the revelry and sensual indulgence/excess that the New Testament warns us of… and the question is, Why do we need that? What is driving us to that? Just my thoughts!
Interesting discussions happening here. I'm glad MH itself (I think) isn't stepping onto one side or the other with these different points of view and interpretations on what's permissible in the bedroom.
My wife and I don't watch porn. Being honest, we have at times in the past watched it together. I don't think I'd have to go off onto a limb to say that virtually everyone on planet Earth (including most Christians) have, at least at one point watched porn, and are currently watching, or will again at some point in the not too distant future.
I would not say that porn or viewing it is explicitly immoral or sinful, but you have to understand that sexuality and sex itself is a completely normal part of us, and very arguably the biggest aspect of us. God designed us as sexual beings, our whole lives revolve around sex and sexuality, and is what makes us human. Without sex and sexuality, we wouldn't be human nor exist. Yes, God did give us some instructions (not commandments) for what he tells us is the most beneficial way to go, which is sex within marriage between a man and a woman, but it pretty much stops there. He doesn't clearly tell us in scripture about these things being discussed. I think it's very much safe to say that you're not clearly doing something wrong with things like porn, the things you do when having sex with your spouse, what you think about, how scantily you dress, etc.
Like I said, we don't very much often view it– probably because we really don't have that much down time for the thought of it to come up. And it might actually be something that could benefit us. But I surely wouldn't be heartedly against or surprised if a lot of Christian couples find it helps or contributes to their bedroom time.
Mrs here,
When we were much younger, we were in Vegas with my sister and her husband. We had not much money so we shared a room with them. One night it became apparent that both couples were trying to have sex as quietly as possible. After a few minutes my sister said forget this and threw off the covers. I watched her slide down her husbands body and take his cock into her mouth so I did the same to my husband. We proceeded to have wild passionate sex not caring about being seen or seeing them. Easily one of the hottest sessions of sex we have ever had.
It was thrilling beyond words.
I bet that was hot. Our first such experience was also sharing a hotel room. But we merely listened. Still very hot. Not sure how I would react to my sibling seeing me have sex or seeing them.
To answer Oldlovers' question, we need to first discuss the morality of erotica and nudity in general. When I refer to erotica in this post, I am referring only to material that portrays Biblical married, monogamous sex.
Conservative Christianity (of which I consider myself a part) generally teaches that it is wrong to be sexually aroused by anything other than your spouse. However, given that the Bible contains a whole book of erotica describing the sexual escapades of a married couple, this is a difficult position to support.
Jesus is clear that lust is a sin. But Christians who oppose erotica tend to confuse lust with arousal. Some men can appreciate the feminine beauty of a woman other than his wife to the point of getting an erection, without wanting to have sex with her. Seeing someone else may well increase his desire for his wife. A person can come here and get a mental picture of another couple making love without wanting to swap spouses. It will hopefully increase the desire for each other. That is the whole idea behind Christian erotica.
There isn't anything scripture that says it's wrong to watch someone else have sex. (I have studied the historical context of the passages such as Romans 13:13-14 mentioned by Stag, and do not believe they encompass watching someone else have sex, even if done deliberately).
People learn to do everything but sex by watching. It seems that this should be especially true for something as nuanced as sex. My guess is that had Adam and Eve not sinned, people would not be so bashful about their bodies, and anyone getting married would have witnessed the act of marriage between several other couples already. I have long thought that having a video of an experienced married couple having sex as they normally do, not putting on a show, would be a great education for engaged couples to watch in preparation for marriage. (Coming soon to your local Christian book store. NOT!) So many people get married thinking sex is like in the movies where two people get aroused, jump into bed together, and are effortlessly having mind-blowing orgasms within minutes. Porn sends basically the same message — at any rate what little I have seen is not realistic at all.
How is watching another married couple having sex different than watching the same thing on a movie or video? To me, the issue isn't so much the media used (print, video, or seeing), but the nature of the erotica. Erotica can either celebrate and promote sex and married love, or degrade sex by taking it out of the context of married love. Pornography degrades sex.
Watching another couple have sex is more of a question of "is it beneficial?" Read 1 Cor 10:23-31. Here are my musings.
Watching another married couple having sex and having them watch us is something that I want do if the right opportunity presented itself. This is highy theoretical — at this point my wife would never go for it, and I don't anticipate her ever going for it. And I don't know any other couples who would be interested. If that changed and I actually did have the opportunity, I may well change my mind.
I would have many concerns about doing it. I would want it to be by prior agreement with another couple who is committed to monogamy. I have a problem with people having sex where they might be seen by the public, or invading someone else's privacy if they invertantly left a curtain open a bit. I may not have the self control to not watch however 🙂 My biggest fear would be what would happen if we ever had a falling-out, or that the experience would adversly affect the relationship in some way that we cannot anticipate. What would happen if someone else found out about it? Women in particular tend to have body image issues. What would happen if the other wife had bigger boobs and my wife thought she was more attractive than her? The other wife may well have the same thoughts. What if I found the other wife more attractive than my wife, or the other guy found my wife more attractive? And I am sure there are other potential problems that I have not thought of.
On the other hand, it would be fantastic to witness true married love. And educational too. It would be a huge turn-on. For sure I would want to make love to my wife after watching someone else. I am blessed with a very beautiful wife who takes great care of herself. She is more attractive than most women 20 years younger. We have only been with each other. I have never been tempted to seek out someone else, and don't think I would lust for the other wife. I have been to nude beaches and have not lusted for the women I saw. I couldn't wait to get home and do my wife 🙂 I have sex with my wife first and foremost because I love her. I don't love anyone else that way. My wife has come a long way in self-confidence and acceptance of her body. I don't think seeing another attractive woman would be a problem for her. Perhaps that woman who looks so perfect dressed in her Sunday best would not be as attractive in my wife's eyes if she could see that woman nude. I was watching a documentary that showed a lot of topless women. My wife walked in and watched a few minutes, then commented "I really like my boobs!"
It would be something that I probably would soon lose interest in. I would want the sex to be real sex, not putting on a show. Sex done to express love and for the pleasure your partner isn't a great spectator sport. It has its moments, but so much of it would be monotonous to sit thru. Rubbing her clit for a half hour, or just joining and lying together for a long time. Fun to do, boring to watch. That is why porn is so different than real sex. Fun to watch, not so fun to do.
It might be a bad idea. I will probably never have an opportunity to do it. But it is fun to think about!
I hate to disagree with even a small point of such a well written comment that makes so much sense. But if a man gets an erection because of a woman he wants to have sex with her. His learned rules that he has come to live by may say that desire is wrong so he should not.
Also my view of lust is different but I have stated that previously in depth.
Having been fortunate enough to have witnessed another couple I’m glad you have an open mind to it. Nothing sinful about it or sex.
I agree with Marge that the body's response to visual stimulation could be called "want". But I think that we can draw a distinction between the physical response — the body getting ready to have sex because of what we see — and the spirit's will (determination) or even desire to carry out what the body perceives as imminent. Animals see signals, get hard, have sex. We see signals, get hard or wet, enjoy the sensations but *choose* whether we have sex and with whom. (I think I'm agreeing with you; right, Marge?)
For us, especially as Christians accepting a higher authority than our flesh, I think there is want and then there is will. And I draw comfort and strength from Galatians 5:17 that, even if my flesh responds to and desires a thing — and there's a long list, many of which could be chalked up to biochemical responses to stimuli — by the strength of the Spirit, I can choose not to do it. For some, that takes the form of avoiding the source of the stimulation; for others it may be enjoying the (God- designed) physical response but not stepping outside the boundaries He set for its fulfillment.
Yes CHL I think we are in basic agreement. I see ice cream and want it but know I shouldn’t so I don’t. If we have made a commitment to another person or our God we don’t do things that we may want to do. I think to lie about the desire is a sin, where as the lust is not, it’s natural.
Don’t be so judgmental of animals. Lol.
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Gotta say…I'm quite shocked/stunned to see Christians on MH saying that viewing porn isn't sin (I've seen it in the past too). The entire porn industry is sinful! And thus, how can a person or couple's watching it somehow become Godly? Surely we Christians haven't become so swayed by the unbelieving world that we can no longer recognize sin anymore? Porn is sin…always has been, always will be.
Just out of curiosity — not that anything like this exists to my knowledge — if a company only produced audio-visual erotica that depicted real-life married couples having hot sex, setting forth hot monogamy as the standard and encouraging others to it, would you all consider that to be porn and part of the porn industry? Would it be sinful just because it was visual story-telling rather than done in writing or audio only.
I recognize that such material could be even more of a stumbling block to those most prone to lusting or dissatisfaction. But is it adultery (vs. purity) of the marriage bed by definition, or only for those who respond to it thus?
To be clear, I do agree that the industry cares little for God-honoring conduct. Any amature offerings that might fit this description get buried among others by people actually engaged in fornication or adultery.
I’m not hearing anyone defending porn. Yes, some people are trying to raise a point that erotic videos can be enjoyed while not delving into the hyper pornographic “industry.” However let’s face it, most Christians 25 years ago would have called the public written descriptions of monogamous sex acts to be “sinful”…. yet here we are at MH. I think the 2 most important Qs to ask are: (a) is ____ beneficial to my marriage (building up or tearing down)? and (b) is _____ causing any personal harm (addiction, depression)? To some people, written erotica, naughty language, or fantasies are just *too much* and cross the line. The point being, it’s not always one-size-fits-all. No one is suggesting that watching the quintessential 1980s porno with one guy having sex with seven different women is healthy entertainment. It’s just that a LOT has changed, and more monogamous-friendly artistic erotic videos are available than ever before. Some think it’s sin for themselves, some think it’s beneficial. Be true to yourself and your marriage.
The train of thought along the lines of "Pornography is pictures or videos of people having sex. Pornography is a sin. Therefore pictures of people having sex is necessarily sinful." doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
The problem with the term "pornography" is that it is so broad in meaning that it is meaningless. According to Merriam-Webster, it is "the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement." So going by that definition, a love letter to my wife could be pornography. Then there's the legal definition. Erotic material with no redeeming artistic or educational value. Or as one judge said, "I know it when I see it." As used by Christians, it boils down to being "any sexual material that I find objectionable."
Perhaps in our discussions, it would be better to drop the term "pornography" altogether, and use "erotica" instead, with the understanding that there is erotica that depicts sinful acts and relationships, and erotica that upholds monogamous sex within marriage. The former is unquestionably wrong. The latter is good, with the allowance that it is not beneficial for everyone.
"if a company only produced audio-visual erotica that depicted real-life married couples having hot sex, setting forth hot monogamy as the standard and encouraging others to it, would you all consider that to be porn and part of the porn industry?" I wouldn't. Most Christians would obviously.
CrazyHappyLoved said "I recognize that such material could be even more of a stumbling block to those most prone to lusting or dissatisfaction." Lusting is bad obviously. A little dissatisfaction, perhaps not. My wife would not let me perform oral sex on her. But after reading about other couples doing it and how much they both enjoy it, I put forth the effort to introduce this into our marriage bed. Now she loves it!
PacMan said "I think the 2 most important Qs to ask are: (a) is ____ beneficial to my marriage (building up or tearing down)? and (b) is _____ causing any personal harm (addiction, depression)?" THAT'S the bottom line. Thank you!
No offense to anyone. But we all draw the line where we are comfortable. Most porn is gross. Some is just erotic and in no way different than what is written on MH. We rationalize to make us comfortable with our own decisions and put down the decisions which we disagree with in order to feel better about our own. Labeling anything we don’t agree with as sin is an old tool used in a political way. I see watching or reading sexual material as I see drinking. There is fine wine and then there is wood alcohol that may blind you. Hopefully we know the difference and have the sense to use it in moderation.
less than 100 years ago oral and anal sex were considered an abomination by religions and were even illegal in almost all states, even between married couples. Some religions still think so, as do some countries.
To declare something wrong when the line in the sand continues to move seems a pointless reason to judge others. While I am in the minority, I think we need to understand how different the world was 2000 plus years ago and that many reasons for doing or not doing things no longer exist. We know that to be fact. We just have to decide how it applies to different issues.
I think the point about the word porn and anything erotic being bad were good ones. Getting turned on is a good thing not a sin. It’s what you do or don’t next that matters.
I think CHL makes the question a lot clearer, and that is to call into question what makes it decisively wrong or sinful to watch porn or erotic videos? What if there was a production company that was Christian based? What qualifies as "porn," and therefore wrong?
One could easily point out that Hollywood and the entertainment industry are sinful. I think it's easy to say that almost all Christians take part in and/or support the Hollywood/entertainment industry. Almost every movie or series is full of many sinful things, are we not taking joy in all of that sin by habitually watching and supporting it, as well as its sinful creators?
To be honest, I think it would be hypocritical to call other Christians wrong or sinful for watching porn, when they themselves are also (assuming that they're right) guilty of it. Why does porn/visual erotica seem to be the only exception among many other sinful practices in our lives?
Now, I myself wouldn't say that a person who watches secular Hollywood movies or TV shows is unconditionally wrong for doing so. But much of TV shows and movies are overwhelmingly full of much worse things than just naked people/couples having sex.
Having said all that, I would have to say that I think it's a bad argument for those who are of the opinion that viewing porn/visual erotica is inherently wrong to just blatantly call porn/visual erotica "sinful." Yes, you can argue that there is sin in porn, but why single out that sin in porn from the sins in movies/shows we watch, the music we listen to, on and on…
The question really reverts back to whether or not viewing people having sex by itself is sinful, and the answer to that, I think is obviously no.
I know of no scripture that tells us watching people having sex is wrong or sinful. I think that pretty much answers the question of whether it's unquestionably wrong, or if it's not. I think there is no absolute right or wrong for watching people having sex.
You could also easily say that the argument of porn being "sinful," is pretty much akin to saying "cursing is sinful, therefore you're wrong, and shouldn't be saying those words even while having sex."
The perspectives on watching porn/visual erotica with your spouse appear to only be a subjective and opinionated determination, similar to other issues here like fantasy, modesty, language used, etc…
LilaY69 , I thought I was the only one here on MH that believes that erotic/porn videos could be healthy and beneficial! I'm not a virgin anymore, so I know what it's like to have sex. And yes, sex is amazing even though, if it is outside of marriage, it's only for the moment and after that you feel empty because there's no connection , there's no intimacy. Yeah, it's fun, but at the end it's just about the physical… And the porn I've seen is the same. Yeah, it's hot just like CHL said, and I really like it. Dometimes I watch girl-on-girl and I get really hard when I see two women kissing and eating each other's pussies. (Just out of curiosity, lilaY, why do you watch lesbian porn? I'm a man and I love watching, but you are a Christian woman. btw I'm not being judgmental ?) But at the end I feel like such a hypocrite. I'm against homosexuality and what the lgbtq community stands for, but when I'm alone, I find myself watching lesbian porn and I think God hates it and that is what makes me sad… And about godly porn, I don't know if that is even possible. I can't name the the websites that I use, but even ethical porn or websites about females orgasms are ok with homosexuality. Still, I have learned how the female orgasm works and maybe there's something beneficial about it! And when I masturbate with a naked picture of a woman or a girl masturbating on a video, always I'm amazed by God and how beautiful the female body is. When I gaze on how delicate and complex a woman's pussy is, I always think about God's beauty on this when I look at a woman. I don't know if this is wrong or maybe is worship but I just love the way God designed the female body to fit perfectly for a man…
HB, I hear you. There is a beauty to God's creation, but He sets boundaries for our righteous enjoyment of it. For sex, that's marriage. We feel unfulfilled when we ignore his design for sex and do it our own way.
Masturbation to pics and videos is not sex, but does create some of the same chemical responses, some of which are known to create an emotional bond. (You could look up oxytocin, for example.) Maybe that's a good reason to be thinking of your future spouse rather that a random person in media that you are unlikely to ever have a relationship with? Just an idea.
Not answering for Lila but myself, there are videos out there that are beautiful. Their creators know their intended audience, know we crave intimacy, and so portray tender, caring sexual interactions that give the illusion of real, satisfying relationships. But I believe we, as Christians, recognize in our spirit that we can never be satisfied outside of His will. (Or they feed our craving for the raunchy, but those leave me feeling even worse afterward.)
Lila, I think you made a good point about Hollywood and movies. It's a deeply sinful industry, from the egregious behavior of certain people to the things portrayed in many movies, but I draw a different conclusion from that observation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your arguments seem to lean toward saying "leave those who watch porn alone, because these movies you watch are sinful too." I think there's a better approach to the issue, which is that both porn AND many of these movies should not be watched. There's a good argument to be made that Christians shouldn't support movies that we find are promoting sin.
However, there is a core difference between movies and porn, which is in the purpose. Is it meant to tell a story, and only displays sin as part of that story without necessarily promoting it, as most movies do (and as even the Bible does)? Or is it meant to promote and glorify sin as porn does (and yes, some movies do)?
Porn is centered around reveling in, glorifying and promoting a sinful act, whereas in Hollywood it's often used as part of a story; a natural consequence of fallen human interaction, but not necessarily the focus. In movies, we don't necessarily take pleasure in the sinful acts portrayed, but in the story as a whole. We can see the sinful part of a story while acknowledging it's wrong. Of course I think it can still be sinful to take pleasure in those acts portrayed on screen as well. The important point is that, even if we wrongly take pleasure in the sin in movies, that doesn't vindicate porn, it condemns itself.
I could address other arguments, but for the sake of brevity, I'll just contend with one. You find that "The perspectives on watching porn/visual erotica with your spouse appear to only be a subjective and opinionated determination, similar to other issues here like fantasy, modesty, language used, etc." While the variation in people's views may make them seem subjective, I think we generally try to pull our views from deeper principles than just opinion or feeling. My general principle is that we should try to enjoy what God enjoys, hate what God hates, and do what would be most beneficial for the strength, security and flourishing of our marriages. We're all hypocrites to some degree, but that shouldn't stop us from pointing out what we believe to be the truth, and striving to hold ourselves to the same standards that we humbly offer to others for their consideration.
I am amazed at how varied our opinions are as to what is a sin. Maybe a topic that exceeds the purpose of MH.
It’s so sad that some people injected sin into people’s mind when they think of sex. Just as bad [to me] are those that think of it as some holy act. It’s necessary for the existence of the human race like eating. It’s made pleasurable to make sure we do it like good food.
I agree with the point that sex is more fulfilling with someone we love.
Not all “porn” is sin. Certainly very few mainstream movies are sinful. Bad things happen in all industries.
Much of what we have discussed lately is what kind of erotica is acceptable for Christians to enjoy? Written vs audio vs video? Can it be only two people who must be married? Must their thoughts only be about each other? Or can they be about what some other couple did that they read about on MH? Or saw on another erotic site? Or while walking in the woods? Is anal really less of an abomination than girl on girl? Many argue the Bible sees them the same way.
Good luck to MH drawing the line in the sand because I see no two people on MH who would draw it in the same place. And like the Pope’s directive on birth control, most commenting seem to ignore the line in the sand here and supplement what they read here and watch people masturbate on some porn site instead of just reading about it here. And none of that is a sin [in my opinion.]
[I think] these discussions draw more responses than stories because they are more interesting and contain topics not allowed in stories.
"It’s so sad that some people injected sin into people’s mind when they think of sex. Just as bad [to me] are those that think of it as some holy act."
In my mind, the holiness comes out of obedience to God, doing it His way instead of whatever we want with whomever. As I read it, holiness is just "set apart to God." And I think our whole lives are supposed to be holy (though, of course, we all fall short. Thank God for Jesus!)
It seems to me where we all differ is our opinions on whether something is okay, not because God specifically did or didn't forbid it but whether His word or our leaders have indicated that it doesn't "build up", strengthen our walk in holiness with Him. But, for *some* of us more vocal participants, it seems watching plays a part in meeting the sexual needs of ourselves and our spouses. Despite what we may have been told to the contrary, we don't see it as sin.
For me, as I've said, its less about lusting after the people and more about determining, "Am I taking pleasure in their unrighteousness?" To do so, I have to judge *for myself* whether the actions I'm exposing myself to are what God calls us to.
WOW has this topic drawn interest!
Neither my husband or I have addictive personalities. There is no fear of domino affect. Nor is there any threat to our marriage. We accidentally have heard, and later watched others having sex. My husband tried to find videos I might enjoy as much with no luck. I must admit it is quite the turn on. So much so having the other couple see me naked does not prevent me from enjoying the experience. While it has only happened a very few times we both agreed we want to do it again in the future if the right situation presents itself. We also have watched another person masturbate which I was surprised also was very erotic.
Our first time we watched was almost identical to the recently published story on MH. One of the sexiest stories I have read.
It is interesting to read how many people fear watching others. I wish them strength in their marriage. Certainly no one should participate in anything that scares them.
Although based on recommendations on MH I overcame my fear of being on a nude beach. We went with a family we are friends with. After a few minutes of nerves, I was able to overcome my fears and realize how everyone else relaxed and enjoyed. I can’t say it wasn’t at all sexual. But that was such a small part of the experience. While it didn’t cure my fear of being naked in public, it helped.
In the end we have to decide what God has in store for us. Which pleasures we should participate in and which are not for us. I see no sin in watching the beauty of watching others enjoy the great pleasure God has given us. I choose to believe God wants me to enjoy watching. Not that it’s the devil tempting me. The closest I became to being concerned was watching the other husband masturbate for us. Surprisingly we all were very turned on.
These are not activities we will do often. But I certainly hope it happens again. Each person has to decide what path is best for them.
Hi SecondMarge, would you be willing to tell me (us) more about your trip to the nude beach with your friends? I am really intrigued by the whole nude beach/nude resort thing. I'm super excited to hear all about GG's adventure with her hubby, Ben. What was it like for you? What was it like being naked in front of your friends for the first time? Have you hung out naked together since then? After awhile, did you forget you were even naked? Did your own body image improve afterwards (we women are usually super critical of ourselves… I'm a full figured gal, something my hubby finds really sexy, but I have struggled with, so being naked in front of others would be a big step for me). Did your girlfriend admire your body and vice versa (perhaps even grooming habits etc.). Sorry for the million questions. Hubby wants to take me to a nude beach some day. I love being naked for sure and naked outdoors is even more exciting (as is skinny dipping). Anyway, would love to hear more about your experience and how it changed you for the better. Thanks so much!
ILoveSex
I so wish I could recall and find the lengthy writing on MH that helped convince me to finally walk the walk. He wrote about it much better than I can.
I guess my first comment has to be that it was difficult at first. But being with friends, a family made it easier in most ways more difficult in some. And I guess that duality would be the main experience I had. And that was reflected in what he wrote. An innocence, calm, relaxation but an undertone of sexuality. Seeing people that have known me and I them for years naked for the first time was certainly odd at first. But it got better fairly quickly. But just like you check out what friends are wearing that day, I have no doubt everyone in our group checked out each other’s body in a sexual way, even my friends son who is now a young man. Her husband and even each other.
As far as body image. My husband has tried so hard to improve mine. I am the furthest thing from an exhibitionist. In my imagination everyone who would willingly be naked must have the body of a model. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Vast majority were like you see daily, every shape, size, age with all the flaws almost all of us have.
But again that doesn’t mean you don’t find some of them appealing. There were times I caught looks at my boobs, pussy, legs or ass. Sometimes I went into shy mode, sometimes my nipples hardened.
As the day went on I became more comfortable and we all had gotten a good look at each other’s body parts it happened less and less. In the end I enjoyed most of the day, tolerated some of it and was a bit turned on by some. There was even a moment I enjoyed having my body looked at.
If you are full figured you would have been one of many. I am willing to go again. Either to a family environment or to an adults only resort. When we were alone again the sex was very hot. At least hot for our ages.
I hope that gave you a snapshot of our day. If not ask anything. If we could chat privately I might have added a few things. Nothing bad.
You say you like being naked, then go for it. Expect more enjoyment than anxious moments.
I forgot to thank MH for entertaining this situation and allowing the poll. Glad to see it was overwhelmingly in support of watching others.
@HB / CHL
Addressing Horny_boy's question about porn/erotic videos of women with women or "girl-on-girl," keep in mind that I'm not speaking on behalf of all women, or the women here at MH, but it's something that is sexually appealing and erotic to see. I'm not sure how arousing, if even at all, it may be for any of the other women here but among other points, there is a statistic showing it's the most viewed category by women.
This is more of a female psychology/sexuality topic that's not all that well studied or understood right now. But answering your question… At least for me, it's a lot of times favorable because it focuses more on the female pleasure/orgasm and there's a lot more expert stimulation involved.
Now keeping in mind… If you and/or your spouse choose to use erotic videos to turn up the heat, or even for purely educational purposes, and you don't find it to be problematic or uncomfortable, I do personally recommend that you do use it in moderation. Especially if you do use erotic videos of threesomes, girl-on-girl, and the like.
Having said that…
My husband had actually learned a whole lot by watching girl-on-girl. This is totally understandable, as he wouldn't want to learn oral techniques/stimulation by watching a guy licking/eating her out. But I think that's the reason why he has always been so incredibly good at giving me pleasure using his mouth and tongue from the very first time we made love. From oral stimulation and techniques to using his tongue and fingers, he really learned a lot about the female body/orgasm and what feels good as a woman. Not even to mention the G-spot and squirting. Needless to say, my man really knows how to pleasure a pussy, and I'm glad I'm it.
As far as site recommendations for erotic videos, well, probably for the sake of not advertising "porn" sites, it might be best if I don't go through them. I'm not sure how MarriageHeat feels as far as recommending erotic video websites. I do know that they were okay with mentioning FrolicMe which my husband and I have come to enjoy. At least in my opinion, it doesn't deserve the label "porn." It's actually geared for women/couples to watch, and the production quality is top-notch. I think they say it's actually designed to be very female friendly and not trashy.
Thanks, Lila. While we did publish quite a lengthy discussion of what sites people did and did not consider 'porny' on the post titled Accidental Voyeurs in the Woods [ https://marriageheat.com/2019/01/18/woodland-voyeurs/ ], we would rather avoid a rehashing here.
I find the entire porn discussion fascinating. I try to tread lightly on that subject since it contradicts MH policy as I understand it. Especially things such as girl on girl. That said, my husband is a fairly regular porn user and has been his entire life. He never tries to hide it, even some special topics. When he sees something he thinks I will enjoy we watch it together. None of this is sinful. There are those in the Christian community that want to always inject sin into sex and pleasure. Months go by when he doesn’t read or watch any. Sometimes even on an unexpected topic he finds something that leads to very hot sex for us. I am grateful for that. I feel no guilt, nor have any belief that I angered God or sinned. Even though I was raised that way. I feel I have grown as a person and my understanding of Christianity. Even though between marriages when I participated in some activities that would have made my mom saying Hail Mary’s. As I try to remind we all have different limits and none of us should be telling others theirs is “bad”. I don’t even want to get into the huge amount of hypocrisy out there. Thanks to those of you brave enough to admit you enjoy erotica. Lose the guilt, no reason for it.
@MarriageHeat
Thanks. Maybe even a poll about erotic videos would be beneficial. Also, did you see my email regarding the new fantasy guidelines?
We did, and it has led to much discussion. Sorry for the delay in answering, but we want to get this just right.
The responses to a poll would indeed be interesting.
My story is… I am one of those guys who tends toward exhibitionism and I definitely find it sexy. I used to enjoy nude beaches for many years when I was younger. I love stories with a bit of exhibitionism. As a personality, I naturally push boundaries and I don't experience much shame or guilt with that.
And I still enjoy some of that, however, I reached a point in my life where I realised that most of that was fairly empty (though exciting). I longed for the greater beauty of doing deeper into the way of Jesus. I knew I had to choose between my past over-pursuit of pushing sexual boundaries, etc (similar stuff to what is described by some here) and following Jesus full-on… What I mean by following Jesus full-on is… filling my life with all the things he explicitly calls us into… intentionally pursuing this… ministry, bearing fruit, scripture, seeing people converted, discipling others, high involvement in mission, fruit of the Spirit, serving, loving the lost, prayer as an all the time kind of thing… generosity, hospitality… and so on.
I found that following Jesus like that isn't compatible with much of my past orientation. I think we often seek transcendence through pushing the sexual envelop when all along that sense of transcendence is what Jesus and following his way provides. He has what we really need. I know from experience that some of the activities discussed here… whenever I fall back into aspects of that, my ministry becomes less fruitful, I lose my spiritual power and intimacy with Jesus. Many Christians experience this kind of thing.
I think the discussions on MH sometimes are too orientated to defining exactly where the boundaries are, rather than thinking through the deeper orientation of our lives. Jesus is more focussed on the latter. The question is, do we get up each morning excited to intentionally follow Jesus, doing what he has actually commanded us to do, in the positive sense of 'here are the things to really go after in your life'? To fill my life with that. As we deliberately and prayerfully pursue this, our life changes. What we may have justified before, becomes less appealing, feels inappropriate, we hear the Spirit's voice more readily (whereas before we had begun to harden our hearts to him), the tug towards these things may still be there a bit, but we know in our heart of hearts that its not really what we want to give too much attention to, it's essentially heading in the wrong direction.
If we are not pursuing Jesus like this, our sexual desires can easily lead us slowly down a different path. Sex is just so powerful, exciting and seductive. We may not even be aware that we are moving away from spiritual things, from Jesus. I'm struck by Christian swingers who can eloquently justify their lifestyle, without batting an eye-lid, and create websites to promote their lifestyle among Christians. They say that its just so natural to have group sex and it's such a wonderful way to express their faith in Christ. The truth is the evil one has so seduced them that now they are locked into a slavery they don't even see.
I often feel this way, too; If I concentrated more on doing what Jesus did command, I'd spend less time thinking about the things he said not to do (or whether or not he did.) First in my life should be Love — of God, of others, and myself. Yes, sex has a role in that, but shouldn't take up most of my thoughts. I think, with MH having godly marital sex as its theme, our conversations can seem to imply its all that matters. I hope we aren't confusing people when we talk about these things, because they are only a small part of our lives and service to Christ and each other.
For me, the more my husband and I accept and enjoy the freedom of marriage sex, the less time I spend dwelling on it. It loses some of its power over my thoughts… until an opportune time. ?
CHL once again we are very close to complete agreement.
Stag we dwell on what we deny ourselves not that which satisfies us. As CHL said sex maybe dominant topic here but it doesn’t take up enough of our lives to prohibit other things.
I don’t judge others decisions on sex because I don’t want mine judged. If some form of group love works for some Christians, and I can see how it could, I’m happy for them. I guess I just don’t put sex on some religious pedestal. Some holy act.
This really hits home. Not that I am attempting to teach, but I think as a Believer, your relationship with the Father should always be above anything and everything else in your life. In that, of course, your spouse and your marriage would both be included. It's easy for anyone to say, but it's not so easy to actually do. It's something that I'm certainly guilty of not doing, and as is the case with what I believe to be all Christians. And the only way of doing that is by through being in his Word, and listening for Him.
Like CHL said, with the community being based around hot monogamy, the conversations might falsely create the perception that sex & marriage are the most important or consuming things in our lives. Which wouldn't be accurate, but I think most wouldn't see it that way.
As well as with us, I can't even begin to express how satisfied we are with God's amazing gift of sex and sexuality. The electrifying connection between, the incredibly beautiful and erotic female & male body to the point of beyond breath-taking… Sexual fulfillment when applied, as it was intended to be, in a deeply loving and intimate relationship, one man and one woman as one flesh, until death do us part.
Myself as well as my husband take full advantage of the freedom of sexuality and sex within the bounds of our marriage. We are given the freedom and pleasure to explore our own sexualities, our own bodies and sexual psyches, as well as each other… Whether that'd be each other's bodies or sexual psyches.
A lot of great points in this discussion. I enjoy reading erotic romance novels. Some are a little more explicit than others. There are no pictures or illustrations. Some I guess would call it "porn", because they describe sex acts in detail. I personally do not view them as such, but that is my belief. Everyone views things differently based on what they are taught to believe, whether by their parents, school or church. Not saying I agree or disagree because that is their personal belief.
Not long ago I went and visited our son Randy at his apartment (he splits rent with two other guys). Anyway, in his room I happened to notice a couple of adult magazines on the bottom of the rack that supported his television. Do I approve of such publications? I can't say that I do.
Did I get upset and lecture him about them? No I did not.
I did ask him about them and he admitted that they were indeed his. I could tell he was embarrassed quite a bit. He could have easily denied they were his, but he was honest about it.
I let it go after that because I respect his privacy. I think we as Christians and individuals all have our own boundaries and beliefs. Many Christians were brought up to believe masturbation is a sin. Many still do. It is all about what we were taught.
I read my bible regularly and try to be a faithful follower of Christ. He is my savior!
However, the Bible was written long ago and in my opinion not all (especially old testament) are still relevant. A lot can be translated and twisted to fit a person's beliefs. I feel what Jesus says in the New Testament will always be relevant and a good reference for our lives.
I don't recall reading anywhere where Jesus specifically condemns masturbation or to be honest erotica. Yes, coveting another man's wife or another woman's husband is a sin.
There are a lot of things that are left out of the Bible that the translators (the Church) deemed "too radical for the average Christian." I will try and find the article and share the title with MH. The article was written by a Christian Theologian and is a very interesting read. I don't agree with everything he says, but he makes some very valid points and references to scripture.
Erotica has been around for centuries and will continue to exist for centuries to come.
I personally don't believe looking at erotic pictures of a couple having sex is necessarily sinful. I will say that we must draw our own boundaries and keep Christ in our hearts. He will lead us in the right direction.
I truly am not criticizing Christianity or trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. I am a Christian and love God above all others. Even my husband. This is only my own opinion.
God Bless you all and Stay Horny Always!
? Gina ( GG )
Hmmm we seem to be using semantics, feelings and "freedom" to justify our more and more erotic desires. Talk of same room sex, watching same sex porn. More and more risque pictures, exhibitionist and voyeuristic talk. I don't know exactly where some of the lines are and I am far from being a prude or having it all figured out or under control but I probably should move on. I think we have gone way beyond the simple sharing of experiences, encouragment, advice, counsel and help into something else. People are influenced by our words and I fear for what we may be unleashing into some lives. Bye MH. I want to keep reading but it is feeding something inside that I think probably is best to not feed so much and also I'm not here with my wife. Maybe check you out again another day.
Don't go. We are just broken people in need of the grace of God. MH is based on the true principles of God's word, sex between a man and a woman in the bonds of marriage. These sex stories are between married ppl. And about this topic, we are just being honest. Come on, let's face it: nearly everyone has watched erotic/porn videos at some point and what MH is doing is great. They are providing a forum to share this kind of stuff that maybe you wouln't share with your youth leader or pastor for the fear of being judged. This site has really empowered me to masturbate without shame, and this is my MH family. Yes, we are not perfect but we share something in common. We love SEX and also we love GOD and we want to do things His way and glorify His name!
Ben, thanks for your honesty. The opinions expressed on advice posts will vary, coming from those with a wide range of understanding — even among Christians. That said, we commend your decision to avoid content that you feel harms your walk with Christ. And we always recommend that one's spouse be aware of and not against one's participation with MH, as a basic matter of trust.
The debates on MH as to what should be acceptable remind me of the history of the female bathing suit. Women went to the beach covered from chin to toe. Showing an ankle was a scandal because men would not be able to control their animal lust. Then it moved to showing calves and shoulders just as MH allowed language and anal. MH decided to allow fantasies like bathing suits showed some thigh. Necklines dropped showing cleavage and it was the devil’s work just as MH considered witnessing others having sex. I suggest to those that think this is a radical step that we are a long way from the string bikini. And maybe MH should stop at the one piece; I’m not judging, merely pointing out that men didn’t lose their minds when women started showing their ankles on the beach. Nor will they here if the included topics move into the 20th century. You can’t please, everyone no matter where you draw the line.
And we want everyone to use their discretion to choose what material is beneficial to their marriages, hence the ratings.
But discussions that include various viewpoints, even those that aren't mainstream, allow us to examine ourselves and our convictions without condemning others. And when we peacefully listen to the opinions and thought processes of others then respond peacefully with our own, they can meet a more responsive audience. We believe that is integral to being both salt and light.
This is a tricky question – what is acceptable and what isn't. I think one thing we have to accept that whatever we see will influence us. This might be positive or negative. A personal example: when I was about 12 and went over to one of my friends, he showed me a porn magazine he found in his dad's room. This was the seventies, and actually the stuff was not extreme at all, pretty much normal couples having normal sex. I still remember one picture though: it was a picture story of a couple going for a picnic and having sex on a blanket in the middle of a forest. The last picture showed the woman's pussy, all hairy and wet, covered in blobs of cum. I found it really erotic and still, 40 years later, this is one of my favorite things to see. Fortunately my wife is happy to oblige…
Thanks for all the great responses to our original question about the difference between watching couples engage in sex in person and watching a video of the same. The responses reflect how serious the MH community takes Biblical morality. It seems that the question is not easily answered but depends upon several factors. The motivation for seeing others have sex, the motivation for those who may make videos of the same. For some it is to feed a lustful addiction and for others it may be to learn or enhance their sexual experience. We have a few times viewed some erotic videos and it certainly was a turn on for us. We did not find ourselves wanting to have sex with the couples on the screen but it created a desire for each other. We would suggest that if such material is to be viewed it should be between married couples for instructional or enhancement and not just for monetary gain. Also it should be viewed as a couple with both agreeing to watch and not by one alone.
Perhaps the biblical principle of eating meat offered to idols may apply. What one couple may view is not the same as what another would do. Also it is important to not force a spouse to engage in any activity they are uncomfortable with. May God lead each of us into satisfying sexual experiences that honor God and each other.
It has taken me a while to get around to it, but here are my thoughts: I don't think watching a married couple have sex is always sinful. I believe it can be sinful and detrimental, or a blessing and beneficial depending on the state of heart of those watching. This goes for in-person and in videos, audio and pictures.
As for being watched, this is even more tricky, because you don't know the state of heart of those watching unless you already have a very, very close friendship with them (and even then it's not guaranteed). Because this is an area where unhealthy thoughts can so easily come up and infect our hearts, I would be very cautious about allowing anyone to watch. This is one of the big reasons I don't think it would be wise for even a married couple to put a video of their lovemaking online. In that context, anyone watching is very likely to have unhealthy thoughts in their hearts, and I don't think it's right to facilitate those.
Besides that, sex is an extraordinarily private, intimate and sacred thing. It should be treated with the utmost respect,which again means both the performers' and watchers' attitudes and hearts must be in the right place. I'm not sure exactly what that "right place" is, but it probably entails a combination of praise to God for the beautiful creation of sex, a deep and utterly satisfying contentment with our own spouse and sex life, and a sense of gratitude to the other couple for respectfully observing or performing the sacred act. And clearly, everyone involved must be extremely strong in resisting temptation, extremely unified with their spouse and extremely committed to them. I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea, on a practical or moral level, but those are some of the things I think should be in place for it to have a chance at being acceptable.
I think there are situations where it's okay, but they are few and far between. I believe the risks and costs far outweigh the benefits in most scenarios. Tohimbetheglory had a good point about how sexual distractions, live or on video, can detract from the spiritual and emotional closeness and intimacy of sex, because your attention is split and not focused solely on your spouse. Things like that can work their way into our minds and hearts extraordinarily easily, even if we're 100% confident in our ability to resist physical temptation. We may not even realize the detrimental effects they have on us and our most highly treasured, intimate marriage relationship.
Like many, watching and being watched is a bit of a fantasy for me, but I think I value my future marriage too highly to unnecessarily risk that coming between us. It's a standard I'm not sure I can biblically apply to everyone in every circumstance, but I believe it's generally prudent to avoid such situations.
I wanted to address a few other points too, starting with voyeurism (and exhibitionism to a lesser degree) being planned vs unplanned. I don't think there's really any difference beyond the first few seconds. Even if starts out unplanned or unintentional, if you keep watching, it's intentional and effectively "planned" from that moment. Though I cannot speak definitively on what is right or wrong in regards to watching in general, I don't think that it being planned or unplanned makes any difference.
As for potential violations of privacy, we need to assess each individual situation. If we see a couple buck naked and going at it on a hotel room balcony in plain view, they likely know what they're doing, and have voluntarily given up their privacy. If they're inside on the first floor and you happen to see through a small gap in the curtains, they probably don't want to be seen and you should respect that. There's a lot of in-between, but I'd err on the side of respecting privacy. (Although there's another interesting point I thought of that PacMan also brought up, which is that we live extremely private lives compared to many in history. I'm almost certain there were times and cultures where it was normal to have sex with other people in the same room, even if they weren't intentionally watching. That level of comfort with our own, and others' intimacy is a beautiful thing. But it brings up all sorts of questions for us, like the ones we've been going over about the precise protocol that promotes biblical respect and healthy thoughts for everyone involved.)
As for the closely-related topic of porn, I think there are a couple of different categories that we need to approach differently. The first is true pornography, or depictions of sexual immorality, and the second would be depictions of God-ordained married sex, which I'll refer to as Audio-Visual Erotica, or AVE. Speaking of pornography first: beyond the potential psychological damage, which itself can be quite severe, another issue is our state of heart. I may have mentioned this in another post a long time ago, and I think it's a convicting point to consider: As Christians, can we rightly take pleasure in something that is heinously offensive to God? I would answer with quite a firm "no," which is why all "porn," or depictions of sexual immorality, is off-limits. (One of CrazyHappyLoved's earlier replies to LilaY69 explains this point well – I'm not calling anyone out, just trying to give a reference.
– I believe this could logically apply to sexual fantasies as well, though that's perhaps a point for another discussion.)
However, AVE involving only married couples is different, it's something deeply PLEASING to God, so should be pleasing to us too. However, there are still risks based on our state of heart and personal weaknesses. I think videos of married couples generally will show kinds of sex that are less likely to psychologically warp us the way porn does, but it still must be very carefully assessed. The temptation to covet or be discontent comes with literally anything we can desire. We might normally be good at resisting that temptation, even without conscious effort. But watching someone have sex is such an intense experience and visual stimulation that it amplifies the temptation significantly, which is a risk to us. When you also add on the distractions from focusing on your spouse, we see there are lots of potential risks and downsides. In my view, it's almost never worth the time to sort them all out just for some fleeting pleasure.
Hello, MarriageHeat ! ! We are a somewhat newly wed couple here. (3 years this coming September!!!) My wife introduced me to marriageheat, and we both have had really great sexual escapades all thanks to the inspiration from the authors here.
This is a very riveting discussion, and there are a lot of good points coming from every person's perspective. We hesitated to comment, but since the discussion on here has grown so large we thought that maybe our take would be a contribution and not a controversy for other couples of hot monogamy.
I don't think anyone is calling out other people for being wrong on their take, and I'm glad to see every one being understandable and willing to have their views challenged.
So for us… Actually first of all… For me, the simple thought of my wife actively seeing another man or woman engaging in sexual activity or in sexual pleasure is just a huge turn-on. My wife is sort of the same but probably not to the degree that I am.
But the truth is, my wife and I both like to sometimes watch "porn" (only) together as a married and completely monogamous (Christian) couple. Yes that term, "porn", is a loose term. Many here refute that "porn", is all in the same boat and that "erotic videos" or "Audio-Visual-Erotica / Visual erotica" can be or is different from "porn".
So for us… The way it works is, neither of us are (at least knowingly) lusting for the people on screen, or wishing that we could engage in the same activities on screen if they involve something different than one man and one woman. What it does, especially for me, is it gives me extreme arousal — by just visually seeing my wife with her eyes on the people and the sexual activity they're engaged in on screen, but especially her "arousal" and physical/verbal responses as we watch and play together. While we're watching and engaging with each other in this very fun activity, I'm very focused on my wife and her body, believe it or not. And she is actually what turns me on the most while we're watching erotic videos/porn, and enjoying the whole activity together. I'm focused on her immeasurably beautiful eyes, what she is thinking, but probably most especially her sexual/verbal responses in relation to a female or male that her eyes are on, and everything that we're seeing on screen.
Whether it'd be late-night skin flicks/porn on things like HBO, Max, or Starz… Which by the way, I don't think any one has mentioned this type of visual erotica where they don't seem to have close-ups of genitals or penetration… or porn websites//porn production sites, while even amongst these porn sites some being harder core "porn" than some of the others. It depends on what we see fit to watch together. We have often viewed sessions involving more than just a couple.
Now… I guess one question would be, has this occasional activity of watching porn together caused any negative feelings between us or anything negative regarding our marriage, love, trust, or dedication for each other?? After many conversations of feelings and thoughts shared, the answer we've found is really no. It hasn't… Could this be because we're very communicative, especially with our feelings or whatever? I don't know. Maybe it's just because we are very grounded in our trust and dedication for each other. But if we did, or we do ever see or feel problems between or with each other, we'll be quick to address it. But either way, we will always still have an extremely hot monogamous marriage.
This discussion about the fantasy or reality of watching and being watched during sex is very enlightening. I noticed that no one mentioned doing this via webcam. My wife and I had the opportunity to do that and although we initially felt a bit of guilt, we now think it was a nice way to share with another couple whom we'll probably never meet in person. The situation began when we contacted another adult married nudist couple from a site for Christian nudists. We felt comfortable communicating nude on webcam because they seemed genuine, and were. We shared chats about the enjoyment of going nude and we shared that visually as well. A few webcam chats later, we talked about sexual expression and how going nude made us more at ease with discussing that too. We were naked and honest with each other and that led to mutual arousal, which we agreed was fine. Playful touching and kissing led to more and we took turns watching and being watched as we masturbated on webcam. We agreed that we were fine with it, so we went ahead and made love while on camera for each other. It was strange at first, but it felt natural and very erotic, of course. It isn't something we'd share with everyone, but it was an experience that we liked as married nudists. No marriage vows were broken and there wasn't temptation for swapping spouses or lusting to do that. It may not be for every couple, but we were ok with it.
That sounds like you met some nice people and had an erotic experience that pleased everyone. We recently tried a nudist beach for the first time. All the people we met were so friendly. One couple we wanted to spend more time with but live too far away. After reading your comment I am going to contact them about trying what you did. It seems like a safe, fun way to do it without temptation. I know my husband is very ready for an expression of this type with others even if it only involves masturbating.
We did spend time at nudist families home and got somewhat comfortable being nude with them. There was no sex just some kisses, hugs, and touching which we all were comfortable with.
Thanks for bringing up this possibility.
This seems so sweet and innocent, appreciating and enjoying the beauty of another couple's marriage heat live via technology. And I especially find the personal aspect (friendship with the other couple) appealing. But having experienced the draw of the swinging lifestyle and come away from it with my marriage intact only by the grace of God, I would caution all considering this step that disobedience can so easily creep in. Yes, this scenario only plays at the edges of non-monogamy. But if you run into that couple at a resort, it could be that much harder to resist taking the next step if the door is opened. We can easily justify it to ourselves and it may not be wrong at all, but can we really say it helps us live holier lives? Just two cents worth from someone who's tasted the grass on the other side of the fence. Decisions should be informed; maybe hearing from those who've burned themselves with the fire can be advantageous.
I will say, though, that Beachlover Guy's situation where the other couple was also Christian may have helped to keep certain doors closed should they ever meet unexpectedly. Having fallen, it's hard to believe that such relationships can stay innocent even though I want to believe it. I'm falling into the trap of thinking everyone's weaknesses are the same as my own. I'm sure they thought things through and made the choice they believed was right.
I think it’s good that you share your experiences swinging. But every couple is different. Some are strong enough to resist temptations; some are not. Each person has to decide for themselves. But I see no reason to think watching others is wrong. Nothing that would indicate it being a sin. Especially if you look at history and multiple families living in one room and children were born.
It probably isn’t appropriate for me to share things I was involved with. Maybe they were wrong, maybe it was a path my life needed to get me where I had to arrive.
@SecondMarge One major caution is to be aware that technology makes it very easy to be recorded during webcam chats. Verify as much as you can to see that your nudist friends aren't recording you, but be aware that they might anyway. You wouldn't want your images to be distributed on the Internet where they might embarrass you. I find that real nudists understand this and are aware that not everyone is comfortable being seen naked in photos or videos.
I agree with CrazyHappyloved no matter how hot and exciting it may sound it’s playing with Fire. Whether one calls it sin or not, does it bring glory to our Lord? Does it really improve your marriage? Does our behavior draw others to Christ? Can we still hear when God is speaking to us or have we hardened ourselves with so many things that we don’t hear that still small voice in our spirit?
I remember my mom used to say if you were driving on a treacherous mountain road would you drive as close to the edge to see just how close you could get and not fall off the edge or would you be hugging the shoulder so you knew you wouldn’t fall. I think that’s how we should treat temptations in our life. Protecting my marriage and living a life pleasing to my Lord and Savior are the two most important thing to me.
I’m not a prude, and I value everyone’s different opinions regarding erotic videos/married couples versus porn/not married. I must say my heart is saddened by the view of so many that watching porn and supporting the industry with our money is okay. Porn is destroying marriages and is an epidemic in the church these days; it’s an addiction to many. There was a time we used pornography, but it really did not enhance our marriage at all. I don’t feel we should be okay with watching orgies and woman-on-woman and men with men; this does go against the MH guidelines. Just my take on things.
Phillipians 4:8 "And now dear brothers and sisters, one final thing, Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise."
Love this MH community.
It's true that this discussion involves subjects outside the guidelines for stories, but we decided to allow loving discussion so that Christians of different walks can consider the viewpoints of others.
We believe that sex between a married man and woman fits Paul's advice in Phillipians 4:8 and brings glory to God. Discussion of how we celebrate and fix our minds on that aspect of the beauty of God's design for right relationships — and how we protect ours with Him and with each other — is part of the mission of MH. We each must act on our own convictions.
My husband and I were able to help another couple several years ago. We are very comfortable with our bodies and frequent nude beaches. We had known the couple for almost a year when the wife talked to me about her lack of knowledge about fellatio. We had some pretty frank conversations. She even brought up the idea of watching us in the act. I discussed it with my hubby and her and decided to let her observe. A time finally presented itself on a trip we took together. We shared a room with them. She brought up the idea again to me and we agreed to do it. It was in no way pornographic. We shared with them our knowledge of oral sex in a most loving way. We didn’t do it with them. They just observed. We had sex many times in each other’s presence over that week. It was all done in a loving environment. We remain friends to this day. God is awesome.
This sounds quite familiar to us, but with us, it was how to, or, Cunnilingus 101. 🙂
Same though, no swapping, sharing, or anything like that. Just watching, learning, and trying new things.
Wow! 93 comments! Thank you all for your input. For the sake of those who might have a new viewpoint to offer the OP, we are going to leave comments on for this post. But we ask that any more back and forth forum-like discussions or challenging the viewpoint of another not be submitted. Just state your take on the issue, please.
Hi all, I have a piece I am putting together that will be way too long for this comment space. It involves the passages delineated by Stag-on-a-hill above. I am putting together some understandings from the original Greek language that I believe will be helpful to all. I believe what I have to offer will not likely offer a conclusive righteous view of planned versus serendipitous encounters or the moral value of either; however, I do offer clarity as to what the aforementioned Scriptures are not saying. Maybe MH wants me to place it here or maybe another place? I plan to submit via email for their approval as to the location as they consider the word count. Stay tuned? Hey, MH, please email me if you have a specific way for me to offer this somewhat lengthy exegesis.
[Responding here for the benefit of others with similar questions, but will email also.] That sounds really interesting. It would probably be best submitted as an Advice Offered post, as long as its at least 300 words. Even if it exceeds 2000, we never restrict Advice posts to Ignite members only, wanting them to have the widest audience possible.