Erotica for Singles and Masturbation?

Hi there to the MH community,

I greet you in peace and love.

I want to start by saying that I like the way marriage sexuality is promoted here, and I can absolutely say, after reading a few posts here – but also, investigating how beautiful marriage is in the Bible – that I keenly look forward to married sex!

I am now single, however. I do have a girlfriend with whom I am in a long-distance relationship, and we’ve been sexually active before, but haven’t gone all the way. However, I put a stop to our sexual intimacy because I felt it was not right, and she understood; but it has knocked us a bit.

That is not the point, though. The inquiry I come to you with is that of self-pleasure.

I have raging hormones, and I am very easily turned on. In the past, I’ve given in to porn and excessive masturbation because I have not been able to control myself. However, recently, a month back or so, God taught me how I could never hope to keep the law and that I’ve broken it in so many ways, but that He sent Jesus to pay for my transgressions.

After years of being a Christian, only recently have I come to know just how much Christ did for me! And He has shown me how to repent; He has given me the strength to resist temptation. I’ve abstained quite a bit from masturbation, and I’ve decided that pornography is no longer to be in my life; it is a damaging sort of erotica. And I feel good—well, I did, because only very recently did I masturbate again, but without the usual porn that I used to watch.

What I mean by feel good is physically so, I felt quite vigorous and energetic, but recently, I just desired to play again, because I was just so horny.  But I’ve come to appreciate the benefits of abstinence greatly.

This is where my inquiry comes in. Sex is meant for marriage; we can all agree. But how does masturbation fit in? It’s sexual satisfaction without a spouse, which seems short of God’s plan. Yet, of all the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and those mentioned in the New Testament, masturbation does not seem counted among them. So, what part does it play? If we say that it is just to relieve sexual tension, then is that not a form of “self-reliance” instead of relying on God for sustenance?

And if it is for pleasure, is it not a desire of the body? But food can be a desire of the body, sleep as well. Do we not need these things? If so, and it is then right for pleasure, then is mental sexual imagery a sin? Or is erotica, be it any form (as long as it portrays married sex), a sin? The introductory post on “Singles Masturbation” says, “MarriageHeat welcomes the opportunity to help singles ‘get off’ on monogamous sex.” “Getting off” is sexual, for pleasure. So do you think such a thing is acceptable?

Furthermore, what would be your opinion on erotica featuring other singles masturbating? I know it may sound strange to ask, but my reasoning is that if masturbation is not sinful, then getting off on others doing it may not be wrong, as long as it doesn’t lead to the desire for the person outside of sex.

I’m an incredibly horny person, I will be straight-up honest. And sometimes I just want to get off to something sexy! I love nudity; I love the thoughts of sex. I’ve loved seeing sex happen in videos, I love watching women masturbate! No, I’m not condoning the porn industry, but I hate damaging erotica that showcases sex outside of God’s laws.  But is there good erotica, like what I’ve mentioned?  I don’t desire the people I see in the videos; I just like getting off to them.

I don’t think it’s right that my girlfriend and I send each other nudes because that might lead to a premarital sex desire. (Perhaps we could send nudes though if we can direct our pleasure to thoughts of marriage with each other, but this seems risky). It seems safer to use “good erotica,” if the things I mentioned earlier can constitute as that.

My questions are earnest. I realize that I might be approaching this from a law perspective rather than a grace perspective, but if Jesus came to fulfill the law, it would make sense we look there to how He wants us to live. I’m not trying to justify any wrongdoing, but I want to express my sexuality in the healthiest way. I realize that there have been tons of scenarios like mine, but I hope someone can help.

May you go in peace and love,

Kind regards,

southernmost

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34 replies
  1. PacMan says:

    No one will have the ONE RIGHT answer for you, but you can discern everyone’s opinions. My quick thoughts are that masturbation for fun, pleasure, & play is 100% okay… I would even encourage it. The Bible says that sex is for marriage, it does NOT say that sexuality is only for marriage. It is healthy for those with high libido to get off regularly; masturbation is a healthy release valve. I personally don’t have a problem with a single seeing some nudity and light erotica while masturbating. I don’t even have a problem with “sharing nudes” with GF… unless, as you state, it might cause you two to lose self-control when it comes to sex. Getting off or having orgasms is sexual, but doesn’t equal sex. The issue of lust has been discussed here frequently, and I don’t think erotica-as-fantasy is morally bad. I also think as your marriage approaches, it is healthy and advisable to turn more of your sexual energy to thoughts of your FW. Fantasizing about your married sex life is a good thing.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there PacMan

      Thank-you very much for your reply, it was indeed helpful. I am currently engaged in self-study of the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, and it is actually fascinating to discover God's laws as opposed to what we've been taught God's laws are by the church. Of course, most of the laws we are taught do match up with the Bible, but there are some things that only the Greek can make clear, like the issue of lust. And when one starts doing research this deeply into the Bible, you soon discover a big grey area concerning sexuality. I think the reason I sought advice was that I did not want to call something a sin which is not a sin, and vice-versa too. I think Paul warns a lot about this. At the end of the day, I do think it's a heart issue when it comes to these grey areas. The Bible seems to have a very positive view of sex if you actually look at it. Looking at the book Song of Songs, it seems to promote erotica too as there are some obvious sexual references there.

      That is again why I sought some advice because it got me thinking that there must be good erotica out there for Christians. And I like to use the word "erotica" as opposed to "pornography" because of the negative connotation the latter has on it. So I thank you again for your assistance here in describing to me what you see as good erotica. I have come to think that any erotica is good as long as it does not show an action that breaks God's laws (cheating, homosexuality, etc).

      A note on nudity, however. While I do love nudity and it does play a part in my arousal, I will not say it alone is arousing for me, partly because I don't believe nudity is always sexual, judging from what I've learned from the Bible. Now, this isn't because porn has desensitized me or anything; it's just that I'm not always turned on by naked women. I think nudity is quite a neutral thing in certain cases and that our modern day and age has over-sexualized it. Nudity has a time and a place I believe, both inside of sex and outside. But for me at least, it's not strictly related to erotica, but it does play a big part once I'm aroused.

      Lastly, concerning sending nudes to my girlfriend: I also don't believe it's wrong, and I do not mean to go against this site's ethos, but the Bible does not prohibit premarital sex anywhere, as far as I've read and studied; there is not one sacrifice mentioned for premarital sex. Of course, I completely agree that God designed sex for marriage, this I support wholly, but it is not a sin if it happens otherwise. In the cases you do see a punishment, it's tied to theft, theft of a dowry, theft from another man, etc, which is a clear violation. And likewise, sexual addiction or defrauding as I understand are wrong, and premarital sex can easily lead to that, but it's not sinful of itself. So it's a fine line one treads if they go down that path. Ultimately, one would have to be very sure their partner is going to marry them if they engage in premarital activity, otherwise, they may get hurt. However, even if both parties don't marry, and there has been no theft of virginity, it is still not counted as sin, I believe. To reiterate, I fully believe one should strive for sex in marriage because that is blessed, and I do indeed strive for this, but for the sake of avoiding a man's doctrine, I'm not going to call it sin. Your feedback here with the nudes though was helpful as it falls into this premarital zone of sexual activity.

      Please forgive the lengthy commentary. I have learned a lot since I posted this piece last month and I merely wanted to set it alongside what you've told me.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      Hi, southernmost. I didn't answer before because I felt everyone else had pretty much covered all the bases. But your replies here gave me pause. If I understand correctly, you believe that sex outside of marriage is not a "sin" because there was never any sacrifice set for it's forgiveness. May I please point out that fornication (when discovered, at least) carried a death penalty? We read in Deuteronomy 22:20 that a woman who had no proof of her virginity from her wedding night was to be stoned! She had "played the harlot in her father's house." No option for substitutionary blood sacrifice was given, but that didn't mean it wasn't considered sin. (Praise God that Jesus died for ALL our sins.)

      Granted there is a lesser consequence given for when the fornication was *discovered* before marriage or betrothal- basically pay the bride price, marry her, and never divorce. (Some say this only applies to cases of rape because of the word seize or grab, but it also says "and ***they*** are found out, implying consent and perhaps even collusion to keep it secret.) And the example above (Duet. 22:20) assumes that the husband accusing her was NOT the one who had sex with her before marriage. But it is a stretch to say that it was not a sin because no atoning sacrifice was assigned.

      Before you settle your mind on this issue, I also recommend you revisit 1 Corinthian 6:9 and 18, which are examples of equating fornication or sexual impurity (porneia) with sin (hamartia) and list it separately from adultery (which some will argue is its synonym.)

      I don't mean to discourage you. Keep studying, and I trust that the Holy Spirit will lead you (as He does all God's children) into all truth.

    • southernmost says:

      Dear CrazyHappyLoved

      Thank-you for your reply.

      Firstly, let's address the word you use, "fornication". You are using the secular definition I believe, but I implore you, please go study the Greek language. You will find the Greek word for fornication means something completely different; it is referring to prostitution, and usually refers to temple prostitution which equates to idolatry. Now, I am not interested in secular definitions, as they often go against the original definitions in the Bible – the very same definitions which the Greek and Hebrew will show you. So please, go and research the word fornication as it was originally used and understood – you will find it has nothing to do with premarital sex.

      Secondly, you used the verse from Dueteronomy 22:20. Please go and research this and you will find the virgin in question has stolen from her father and her husband: the father was entitled to the dowry for her virginity, and the man was entitled to her virginity, since he bought it. And on top of this, she lied, which is also a sin. But if she was honest, she didn't cheat anyone because she did not hide it. There were consequences, but these were not punishments for sin, because the wages of sin is death, there is not other wage for sin besides blood. She didn't have to die if she was honest. And note, this had to do with a virgin. What about a non-virgin?

      Regarding 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 18. Again, please go look at the Greek and you will find the words there for fornication and sexual immorality again have nothing to do with premarital sex. Those words have to do with prostitution and specifically male prostitution. And it has to do with idolatry (sex as worship to an Idol). Please note: the letter Paul wrote here was addressed to the believers in Corinth – a place known for its temple prostitutes. Please examine the context of the verses you use.

      Regarding what you said about not all sins requiring a blood sacrifice. If this was true, then did Jesus die for all sins? Or just for "those" that required blood? And somehow we got away with the rest because they had lesser consequences? No, all sin requires blood, for the wages of sin is death. If there was no blood required, there was no sin. If something goes against God's ideal, it doesn't mean it's a sin. God is our Father, and like any father, He wants what's best for us. But we as children don't always meet those ideals. Take Tamar in the Bible for instance: she "prostituted" herself in order to gain a rightful heir for Judah's bloodline – and she was called righteous! She had sex with a man who was not her husband while she was single. And by the way, that same woman is in Jesus' genealogy.

      So I say to you, before *you* settle your mind to this issue, I recommend that you go and study the Bible in the way it was originally written and understood. My issue, as I stated before, is avoiding calling something a sin which isn't, and vice-versa.

      May the Lord guide us always to truth and understanding.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      Hi, southernmost.

      Yes, I do agree and have stated in previous discussions that the Greek word porneia (as with porne and pornos – female and male prostitutes, respectively) does by definition refer to prostitution. But it has a history of wider use to mean "illicit sex" even among first- and second-century Greco-Roman moralists, which includes the times of the New Testament writers. Now, rather than split hairs on what constitutes "illicit," I think it wiser to acknowledge that you are not arguing *for* sex outside of marriage, but against defining as sin that which you do not see clearly defined as such in Biblical texts. As in everything, we must each follow our own convictions in these matters and refrain from judging God's servants as if they were our own.

      For myself, if an accused woman's penalty for "playing the harlot" before marriage (not "lying to defraud", for which Leviticus Ch. 6 *does* prescribe restitution-with-interest and guilt offering) was death, that *was* the blood sacrifice, the wages of sin. There was simply no substitutionary sacrifice assigned in scripture. Still, I absolutely believe that Jesus died to pay that price for and forgive EVERY sin!

      But I note that the husband described as bringing the accusation had "grown to hate her." Joseph, rather than bring such an accusation against Mary (prior to God confirming her innocence), purposed to put her aside quietly. A beloved woman didn't *have* to die for her indiscretion; her husband could forgive it! I see this as a model of God's love and forgiveness for us as we "play the harlot" against him – just like in the story of Gomer.

      Yes, Tamar was in Jesus' lineage (though not "single" as you state but widowed in her father-in-law's household), as was Rahab, an actual prostitute. I don't think this negates the sinfulness of pre- or extra-marital sex, but shows God's inclusive grace. I also believe that when we look at sin as "missing the mark" (the definition of the New Testament word hamartia), we can get away from the whole idea of condemning choices made before people come to God through Christ or as they grow in knowledge and obedience. Who wouldn't make such choices in their own "wisdom," before being convinced that God knows best?

      (And for the record, Judah declined to put Tamar to death for infidelity, calling her "more righteous than I." She had pretended to be a temple prostitute—forbidden by law and punishable by death—to force Judah to give his son the heir the law commanded, as he had refused to do so. This was Judah's characterization of her actions, not God's. And so he did not "cast the first stone," so to speak.)

  2. SecondMarge says:

    Any argument that includes “it could lead to” or “it may lead to” I dismiss completely without further consideration because I find that illogical and nonsensical. People decide what is allowed by the laws and morals we accept and partake if we desire. If it isn’t allowed, we don’t.

  3. PatientPassion says:

    First, well done in pulling back on the sexual intimacy with your girlfriend. It's a difficult thing to do, but I believe it's the right thing. Keep saving that for it's proper and beautiful place in marriage!

    I also rejoice with you that, perhaps partly through this issue you've dealt with, you've grown to understand the gospel more deeply. Praise God for the amazing work he does in us through the hard things in our lives!

    I too "decided that pornography is no longer to be part of my life," and I can tell you it's a great decision. Some may disagree to a certain extent, but I agree with you that it's a "damaging" and corrupting influence.

    As for masturbation, I've developed this view: while it does indeed *fall short* of God's plan, that doesn't necessarily mean it's *against* God's plan. His ultimate design for sexuality is for it to be fulfilled in marriage, but that doesn't mean "lesser" uses are wrong unless they're perversions. For example, a car is designed to be driven, but you can also use it as a quiet place to take a nap, or to just sit and use the heater to get warm. Those uses don't let it live up to its full potential, but they're not wrong either.

    As for self-reliance, God does indeed provide everything we need, but we still have to take action on things. Even when he fed the Israelites in the desert, he didn't just miraculously nourish their bodies so they didn't have to eat; he still made them work to gather the manna. This is to illustrate that, while we do need to trust God's provision, we also can't sit around a pray without being willing to work for food, or to relieve sexual tension that may tempt us in other ways.

    You may have seen discussions here about "pornography" vs "Audio-Visual Erotica (AVE)," where the basic difference is the morality or immorality of the acts portrayed. Videos depicting masturbation may not be sinful to watch as long as that doesn't inspire lust. However, they might still come with some of the addictive and brain-changing effects that other porn has, like training you to be aroused by digital images rather than a person. I'm not sure about all that, but I'd say it's still playing with fire to some degree.

    I also agree it's not a good idea to send nude pictures back and forth with your girlfriend. That seems like a level of intimacy and eroticism that should be reserved for marriage.

    I think a healthy way to express sexuality involves several things. First, reading stories here on MH is great because it trains you to imagine and desire sex as it rightly should be: awesome, hot intimacy only between you and your spouse. Second, use masturbation with that same concept of marital intimacy in mind. And third, something I've done some of and want to do more of: writing about your hopes and dreams for sex in the future! Even if you're not a gifted writer and even if no one else will ever read them, short stories can help you understand your own desires better and express them in a more solidified way.

    I appreciate your willingness to speak up and ask for help! That's one of the first steps in improving any area of your life. I pray for your health, peace and wholeness in this area!

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there, PatientPassion.

      Thank you very much for your reply and help here, I really appreciate it.

      Indeed I felt the intimacy with my girlfriend had to come to an end because our relationship had become too sexual, where sexuality overtook things. I think this was partly due to the fact that both of us didn't have a clear view of sexuality and didn't understand God's actual word on the matter.

      I wholly support sex within marriage, and that's what I want to strive for. But as I said in my earlier comment to PacMan, I do not believe premarital sex is a sin anymore, though it does go against God's ideal for us (this is as far as I've studied). And going against God's ideal isn't necessarily a sin, but it may lead to something that is or it may lead to unforseen consequences, in this case, premarital sex can lead to unwanted pregnancies, STD's and addiction, amongst other things. So I believe keeping those things in mind plus the fact that God blesses sex in marriage is a far more healthy nudge to keep sex in marriage, rather than to just tell people it's sinful – when it isn't, this just heaps up unnecessary guilt (again, this is from what I've learned, I'm not calling it a hard and fast rule). By the way, in no way am I saying that you have done this, not at all. I am speaking generally. This does, however, tie into your car example and how things can fall short of the design, but aren't necessarily wrong.

      I believe that masturbation and erotica are very good for practicing healthy sexuality and a way of abstaining from sex until marriage. I think that's why I so strongly sought information here: because it can be a good tool to use. The porn industry is a business at the end of the day, and in some way, we are paying someone for the imagery they present to us. And when people are exploited in porn, this is where the error in using it lies. How can we tell if people are exploited? Well, we can't always. But if we do not know, how can we be blamed? Paul said something similar about meat sacrificed to idols. So my biggest issues with porn are the people being exploited in the industry and when the imagery goes against God's laws. So I do not want to support mainstream porn because of these things.
      I think it can be addictive, and that's when another problem comes in. It's just like alcohol – it can be good, but for an alcoholic, it can be very bad. So I don't want porn to be a crutch I rely on, which is what I was doing before. But I rather want erotica to play a healthy part in my life and I want to be its master, not vice-versa. I think porn becomes damaging when we have not sought God's law on sex, and we let those transgressions come into our life, like watching people cheat or watching incest, etc, etc. That's when I will say it can be very damaging, and even sinful.

      I do write a lot of poems and I think I should post my poems here on this site concerning sex and so forth. I could actually write a story or two. I do love writing a lot and it can actually be an arousing experience to write. And exploring one's sexuality like this seems good.

      I lastly want to say thank you for your prayers and I will keep you in my prayers too. Your information was very helpful to me, and I hope you do not mind this reply where I have expounded what I've learned.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • PatientPassion says:

      southernmost, I'm glad my viewpoint was helpful for you!

      I want to build on what CHL said about the sex-before-marriage issue. First, I'm glad we're at least in agreement that the ideal is to keep sex within marriage. However, I do believe it is a sin outside of marriage, and I'll explain why.

      I did some study on this issue myself just a few months ago, and I found, as you did, that it isn't quite as obvious as we've been taught. There's no verse in the New Testament saying "Thou shalt not have sex before marriage." And while there's some evidence in the Old Testament that it's a serious sin, there seem to be multiple prescriptions and punishments for various situations that make it confusing. However, from a collection of verses from both Old and New Testaments, I think we can reasonably infer that sex before marriage is indeed a sin.

      First, consider the fact that God closely interwove the institution of marriage and the act of sex. In discussions here on MH, some have even suggested that the act of sex is what makes a couple truly married, and while I'm not convinced of that, they do have a plausible case. When God instituted marriage in Genesis 2:24, he said that "a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." (ESV) Jesus himself later references this verse when debating with the Pharisees about divorce (Matthew 19:5), indicating how central it is. If sex is so integral to the very definition of marriage, I think it's an extremely dangerous thing to try to separate the two.

      Second, and perhaps more concretely, Paul gives some guidance on the issue in 1 Corinthians 7. In 7:2 he says "Because of the temptation to sexual immorality [which I think we agree describes sin], each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband." The implication is that this helps eliminate or subdue sexual temptations. If both partners are unmarried, adultery is already impossible, so Paul must be talking about a different kind of sexual immorality that marriage helps avoid. To me, that implies he believes sex between two unmarried people is the sin in question, because that would be the sin that marriage subdues the temptation to. He also says in 7:8-9: "(8) To the unmarried… (9) …if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." To me, this sets up a pretty clear binary choice: remain abstinent, or marry and have sex within marriage. No third option.

      Finally, CHL mentioned 1 Corinthians 6:9 which I think may be the clearest of all: "(9) …Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral… nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality… (10) will inherit the kingdom of God." Paul lists three different categories of sexual sin here. First, recognize there are two states people can be in that help define types of sexual sin: married or unmarried. Adultery is when you're married and have sex with anyone other than your spouse. [Or are unmarried and have sex with someone who is.] Homosexuality is having sex with anyone of the same sex, regardless of marriage status. So logically, who would the term "sexually immoral" apply to? Opposite-sex, unmarried people who engage in sex. And when it's listed among eight other sins, and it's said that those who practice it "will not inherit the kingdom of God," that makes pretty clear to me that it's a sin.

      I hope this all makes sense! I'd love to discuss further if you have any thoughts or critiques of my points.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there PatientPassion

      Thank you for the time you took in writing your reply and I believe it comes from the goodness of your heart. And I will definitely agree with everything you and CHL said – if I decided that the English translations and modern definitions of those English words used are biblical; however, they are not biblical.

      Firstly, you say there is some evidence in the Old Testament which shows that premarital sex is a sin. Could you please show me this evidence? I have not been able to find it. Indeed, there are those punished with death in certain premarital cases, but this has to do with theft of virginity, and the fact that it was hidden. So we have two sins here – theft and false witness – but not sexual immorality as far as I understand it; unless the virgin was betrothed, then it was equivalent to cheating.

      Secondly, you say that God has interwoven marriage and sex, and you use Genesis 2:24 to base this off – and I will agree with you. But notice, this is before the Fall. In this case where Jesus is talking about divorce, He is saying it was permitted because of certain sins, but it was not always this way (before the Fall). So, I believe that after the Fall, sex and marriage are not strictly attached to each other as it was before. Those who believe that sex equals marriage are misled, at least in accordance with what I've found. Firstly, in God's eyes, a betrothal was equal to a marriage. And sex only consummated a marriage after a 12-month betrothal (usually 12 months). But you will find, if there was unfaithfulness during the betrothal period, it was counted as adultery.
      So for a marriage to be legitimate, there needs to be some kind of pledge or vow to be with the other person. And in the case of a virgin woman, the paid dowry constituted as the pledge to marry the woman.
      Let's look at prostitutes in the Bible. They had sex for something in return, usually money, but sometimes it was in worship to an idol. There are many cases where prostitution is sinful, like when there is idolatry or adultery involved. But there was never a law against an unmarried woman being a prostitute of her own will. Now is this not strange? If there is no law against an unmarried prostitute selling her body, then how can sex equal marriage? Yes, I realise that you do not hold the view that sex equals marriage, but I am trying to show for the sake of the argument that sex and marriage are not always intertwined. Again, I completely believe we should strive for sex in marriage, for it is blessed. Every time one has sex with their spouse, it is blessed! I think anyone who professes to be a Christian would want blessed sex!
      But likewise, we never see a curse on those who have premarital sex, although, it can lead to bad things and sins, and that's why it's warned against so strongly. But it's not warned against as a sin itself.

      Regarding what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7. You say that Paul is obviously talking about sex between unmarried persons when he says "sexual immorality". But please go and look at the Greek word used there for sexual immorality – it is referring to prostitution. Now Corinth was a city steeped in cult prostitution. Would it not make a lot of sense to guard the Christians against prostitution in a city where the prostitution was in service to another god?
      Looking onwards, Paul says it is better to marry than to burn with passion. The Greek word used for "burn with passion" refers to being ignited with passion or being inflamed with sexual desire. Now, in a city known for its prostitutes, what will someone do who's inflamed with sexual desire? It was so easy to use a prostitute in Corinth, and it would have always led to idolatry because it was in service to another god.

      Thirdly, you say that logically, the "sexual immoral" used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 means heterosexual sex between unmarried persons. But the Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. Logically speaking, the Greek word for sexually immoral there means "male prostitute". This makes more sense because Paul is talking about homosexuality. That is why he says people should marry. There is no way you could commit adultery, homosexuality or idolatry within marriage. It would be a safe outlet for sex in a world that is steeped in sexual immorality (please go see the commands in Leviticus and Dueteronomy to see the list of sexual sins).

      In conclusion I want to say that we must not lean on our own understanding, but on God's. We must look to how the Bible was originally written and understood, and it is utter blasphemy to call something a sin which is not, and vice-versa. Now I'm not condemning you and I will happily admit if I am wrong too. But after studying the Bible using the Greek and Hebrew, this is what I've found. The Bible says "Seek and ye shall find". Now God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. And if the Old Testament does not call premarital sex a sin, then the New Testament won't either. And remember, Jesus taught from the OT. God will be very clear on what is a sin, and what is not, because He takes it very seriously. He will not let us figure out what is a sin when it is something so serious. And we know that if we are left to figure things out, we will be misled by each other.

      I realise I am possibly upsetting people here, but I want to be clear, this is from study of the Bible, by looking at the old languages and avoiding secularism as best I can.

      You don't have to take my word for it, but please go look for yourself and put it into prayer. I do all the time. I speak lovingly in this because I care for the truth. Again, I want to state, I am not saying we should all just go have premarital sex or use a prostitute, not at all! I believe we should strive for God's ideal. But to call premarital sex a sin is unbiblical and very unhelpful. It would be far better to tell people that marriage sex is blessed, that it avoids complications like unwanted pregnancies and STD's and addiction (which can easily come from premarital sex). Do you not think such a stance is more helpful?

      Again, I thank you for your reply, but I implore you to please consider mine.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      "Could you please show me this evidence." I believe we have. This evidence does not meet with your understanding. And I find it irrelevant to the subject matter of this website and community, which is the freedom we have *within* marriage to enjoy hot sex. It's kind of off-topic to your original post, too, which was about whether using erotica in any form was okay or not while avoiding having sex before marriage.

      In any case, Jesus came to fulfill the law in that He took all the punishment prescribed by the law for all sin upon himself when He died on the cross. We live now by the Law of Love which we are taught precludes us from judging others, calls us to act in their best interest as well as our own, and says that we must act on our convictions. If we think it is a sin, then to do it is a sin for us. "Whatever is not from faith is sin." If it is utter blasphemy, as you say, to call a sin what is not a sin, then is Paul a blasphemer? If so, then anyone with a weak conscience has even more reason to feel blessed that Jesus promised all blasphemy will be forgiven except that against the Holy Spirit.

      I do find it interesting, though, that you say that the sins the woman or couple died for were theft and false witness, but *those* sins had sacrifices and restitution as their consequence in the law. Their perpetrators were not put to death but had to atone for their sin. And in fact, these were the same consequences applied to the couple who were "found out" in having had sex before marriage when no betrothal had taken place – as you say, no commitment.

      "He is saying it [divorce] was permitted because of certain sins…" What he said was, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard." He went on to say that the *only* reason for divorce that would not render remarriage adulterous was "porneia". So did this mean only a woman who had sex for money or in an idol's temple could rightfully be divorced and a replacement wife taken? No, it seems clear to me that Jesus was using the wider meaning of the term in use during his era – sexual immorality, fornication, perhaps even specifically (but certainly including) premarital sex as described in Deut. 22:20-21.

      I feel the original subject matter of this post got derailed. In the interest of honest discussion and offering a different conclusion, I've engaged, but I think this is as far as I will go. Thank you for your viewpoint, though.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there ArtRutherford

      I am referring to all forms of media that can arouse a person, be it visual, audio or written.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

  4. Cuddles says:

    I want to address the discussion around sex before marriage.

    First off, I am not a bible scholar. I'm a worshipper. I desire to understand and know the heart of God and what's important to Him.

    I'm also waiting for my new man to come to me and have decided to wait for sex until our wedding night.

    God's emphasis on showering us with blessings is revealing of His heart and resulting love toward us. It's us not walking with Him in some way which denies Him the opportunity to have us in a blessed state in that particular area. He enjoys us, we give him insurmountable pleasure just by believing who He says we are in Christ, resting in it and consequently walking and living in freedom.

    Every act of worship gives blessing to Him, and in return, creates a new opportunity for Him to bless us according to His divine multiplication system; e.g. the widow's mite. I believe that the blessing of that offering, a heart to heart decision of hers bc she loved and feared Him, is still rolling on both in heaven and earth, hence her act of worship being recorded in the Holy Bible for all time.

    It is clear that married sex pleases God bc the Bible says it is blessed (Heb: 13v4) The marriage bed (sex inside of marriage), nowhere else, is blessed. The stories of intimate, loving, desiring and good sex between married couples who know each other deeply and satisfyingly well on MH is an indication of that blessing. So it goes that outside of marriage, sex is not blessed.

    My simple "heart" take is that unmarried sex DENIES God the opportunity, even ability, to add His unimaginable blessing which His heart yearns to do. After all, He's the one who created sex in the first place. In my mind, He's champing at the bit, so to speak, to ENJOY us enjoying His wedding present to us!

    I think that DENIAL inflicts unimaginable hurt to God's heart. Why would we knowingly choose to do that to Him?

    That's the reason why I desire and choose to wait, and it's also the reason why I believe God wants us to wait.

    Cuddles

    • southernmost says:

      Hi Cuddles

      I really do appreciate your reply, and I really like your approach to this topic. I am wholly in agreement with you on this matter.

      I think God is hurt when we choose our own way, especially when He has something way better for us in stock. I think seeking out marriage because He blesses it and blesses sex therein is the way God wants us to pursue marriage. I think God wants us to seek everything in our lives with this mindset of seeking His blessings.

      I will say, we are humans still, and sometimes we think we know best and we seek what we think is good for us, after all, God gave us the ability to choose. But not everything we choose is evil, albeit sometimes it's against His ideal. I think we as Christians should obviously not choose something that's explicitly sinful, and that's why God's moral laws still apply today and why we should know what they are. But I think there are things, like premarital sex, which goes against His ideal, but is not necessarily sinful to do. Yet, bringing this back, we should always seek His ideal in our lives, not just for ourselves, but so that our lives are a testimony to others.

      So again, I agree with you in your approach to the topic. I do think though that knowing the law does help us seek God's plan for our lives. Many will say we are no longer under the Law and I will agree, we are not justified by the Law, but by Grace. But by no means has the law fallen away, if this were true, we could do whatever we want. But this is not the case. We keep the law out of love for God and our neighbour, as the Bible says we must love in deeds and actions, not in words and speech.

      I want to bring this back to the original intent of my post. I sought out God's word on erotica because I am a single man and I too want to wait for marriage and my wife one day. I sought God's word because I believe He has made us sexual beings and that sexuality will need an outlet. Now I could choose premarital sex, but I don't want to. That's why I wanted to find out about good forms of erotica and since I've waited for this story to post, I have already learned a lot in the interim, but I have appreciated the advice here. I think I wanted to know if there was a way I could still honour God in my sexuality before marriage and I do think erotica and masturbation is the way to do that. And as far as I understand it, we worship God in the actions we do that He made us to do. I think that is in part why I've sought His word so deeply as to honour Him in what I do, my sexuality included. I wanted to express my single sexuality in a healthy way.

      Again, thank-you for your reply and go in peace Cuddles.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

  5. southernmost says:

    Hi there CHL,

    Thank you very much for your reply. I do believe that you are true in your intent to do God's will and I'm not trying to bring judgment on anyone here. I just don't want God's Word to be misunderstood. Now I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but I am trying.

    Regarding those two Greek words you mentioned having a very wide use: could you show me how wide their use is? In the context they are used, and judging from their actual definitions, it seems that it has to do far more with idolatry and adultery, than it does with premarital sex. Yes, those Greek words can be used to guard against premarital sex, but not call it a sin. But judging from their context and their actual definitions, they are used to condemn idolatry and adultery.

    If premarital sex is such a big sin, then why did God not include it in his laws in Leviticus and Dueteronomy? Surely He would of. God is clear on what's right and what's wrong; why would He leave His followers confused on such a point? That is at least the questions I ask.

    Now, you say that it is to be construed that premarital is a sin, even though it is not explicitly condemned by God. But by the same token, masturbation is celebrated by the people on this site as a good thing because God has not condemned it. Yet the same words used to condemn premarital sex can also be used to condemn masturbation.

    Now, this site promotes healthy sexuality and I enjoy that; I enjoy the stories on here which showcase married sex or a single's dreams of sex one day. But, there are some fantasy stories on here which describe sex scenes between two unmarried people, albeit that some of the fantasies involve married couples fantasizing as if they were unmarried. [From MH: Any fantasy story on MH will always and only be (in reality) between a husband and wife alone or a single person looking forward to marriage.] I don't mean to say you do this but – is it not a double standard then to condemn premarital sex as sin, and yet get off to a fantasy story showcasing premarital sex? Would this story then not go against God's very commandments? If the answer is no, then it would also be ok to watch homosexual porn, and incestuous porn, would it not? But we know that's wrong don't we? Why? Because God strictly prohibits those actions. Is there a prohibition on premarital sex in God's laws? No. Does He want sex in marriage? Of course yes.

    Tamar was called righteous for what she did by the way. And Sampson also slept with a prostitute after his wife died. But we see no sin counted against him here. Although, the prostitute in question did lead him to a place where he did sin, but it had nothing to do with sex, but with breaking his vow not to have his hair cut. Likewise, we see two prostitutes seek council from King Solomon over a dispute concerning a child. The King sorts out the issue, but does not condemn the prostitutes to death. Surely King Solomon would have had these prostitutes killed if they had broken the law by sleeping with men who weren't their husbands? But again, we see they were not held accountable for it. They were free to go. But you will note, evil was to be removed from Israel, yet they weren't killed.

    Jesus said that whoever loves Him would keep His Father's commandments. [From MH: Actually, he said "keep **my** commands, and the NT deals explicitly with which commands those were.] He also says His burden is light. Jesus taught from the OT, so I think the commandments we would have to keep would be there. A light burden means that we are not overloaded with many laws to keep, but only a few simple ones. God was clear on those laws. Please show me the law prohibiting premarital sex.

    Kind regards,
    southernmost

  6. CrazyHappyLoved says:

    I absolutely see your argument. And I appreciate the respectful and sincere way in which you present it.

    "Is it not a double standard then to condemn premarital sex as sin, and yet get off to a fantasy story showcasing premarital sex? Would this story then not go against God's very commandments?"

    I believe the point of these stories is that within marriage, by sharing our fantasies with the one sexual partner we are given, is the only place it is safe to "exorcise" the tendencies of such sins to control our thoughts when kept secret. At least, that is how my husband and I see it. We are able to openly admit to each other that we are turned on by such thoughts while remaining committed to each other and to God *not* to pursue them any longer—in obedience to Him.

    "If the answer is no, then it would also be ok to watch homosexual porn, and incestuous porn, would it not?" For me, the answer is no to both. The difference lies in the fantasy versus the actual doing. Though it is not us committing the acts we see, I feel that seeking out stimulation in the sinful acts of another is taking joy (or at least, enjoyment) in unrighteousness. I still fall sometimes, but I do not excuse myself by saying it is "only fantasy." My only hope is in Christ's sacrifice.

    "Is there a prohibition on premarital sex in God's laws? No. Does He want sex in marriage? Of course yes."

    I believe this is the crux of our disagreement. I do not believe something has to incur bloodguilt under the Law to be a sin. That is to say, I believe every "missing of the mark" of the perfection God intended for us as His image is sufficient to have required the sacrifice of Christ to reconcile us back to God. In fact, the NT tells us that there was sin between the Fall and the Law, but it was not imputed because people weren't aware of God's righteous requirements. And still, death reigned. I don't look at my redemption as *strictly* a transaction, a legal requirement—though believe me, I once lived a VERY legalistic life after repenting. I see it as Christ calling me out of that legalistic way of relating to God and into a life that seeks to give him glory in the way I live for Him, being faithful to act on what I *do* understand to be His will. This includes my role as being a help perfectly suited to my husband and his needs, including the sexual ones.

    I don't "condemn" a person for anything, even if I understand it to be wrong and refrain from it. It is not my place. Neither will I quibble anymore about the definitions of sin under the law. We are *not* under the law, praise Jesus! "All have sinned *and* fall short of the glory of God." I'm just thankful that my justification doesn't depend on my perfect keeping (or even understanding) of the law but on His free gift of grace.

    • SecondMarge says:

      I believe it is folly to think one set of rules constructed from the Bible can be right for all people. If the Bible was that clear, even in the past, Luther would not have broken off his own version of beliefs, Calvin, and 100 others that turned into various versions of Christianity. There would not be on going debate for centuries by biblical scholars over what a verse may or may not mean.
      We will never all agree on what erotica is acceptable and what is not. The recent poll on the use of erotica makes that clear. You can go down the path of the wife is sinning by performing an “unnatural act” by pegging her husband. Or the path that sex with an unmarried woman is not adultery, justifying threesomes where an unmarried woman is the third party.
      For every position one could reasonably take, someone familiar with the scriptures could argue against that opinion. Some take the defensed position that any erotica is wrong including what we share here. Or all the way to as long as it is only used between a married couple anything goes. Frankly, the middle ground is the most difficult to defend.
      So in the end we will have our own personal level of acceptance. All we can attempt to do is decide what is off limits on MH. Or can be shielded from those who would not be comfortable reading it by a warning letter.
      I am amazed at the territory we have covered in discussions in the comment sections like this one. Much of which would not be approved in a story.
      For example what you call “homosexual erotica” and don’t find allowable is what some find the most popular in girl on girl stories. Even several have admitted fantasizing of being with a same sex partner. I think it is very healthy and not sinful to admit these desires that allow others to understand they are not alone when they have them.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there CHL,

      Yes I will agree, there has been much deviation in the original intent of my post and I feel it should be a separate discussion somewhere else. I actually only intended to discuss erotica, rightly as you have mentioned.

      But to wrap up this, I will say that you still have not shown me the commands against premarital sex. Yes you've shown me verses, but these don't have anything to do with premarital sex, especially when studying context and the Greek and Hebrew.

      With regards to the non-virgin who was killed for playing the harlot: I think I have been incorrect in saying that she died for bearing false witness, but regarding theft, I don't know. The passages seem to show that she was stoned because she profited from something that was not hers to profit from, namely her virginity, and she kept it secret, she did not confess it. She has also dishonored her father here by taking what was not hers to take for herself. The fact that it uses, "play the harlot" is alluding to some unlawful gain, be it money or pleasure. There is a similar example where the virgin woman sleeps with a man, but the two are commanded to marry and aren't stoned at all. So there is an obvious difference here and I do not think premarital sex is the issue, rather, it's a property issue.

      Yes, personal conviction does help us in how we should live, and definitely, for people who have a history of sexual sins, premarital sex is probably a bad idea, and if you do think it's wrong, then it's wrong to do. I'm not arguing with Paul here. But in our journey with God He does draw us more deeply in to learn what His word says, and so our perceptions may change as we learn what His law actually comprises of. Before you think I am being legalistic, I am not – and neither were the Jews, only the Pharisees and the "holy men" were legalistic. But the Jews were never legalistic as a people. Remember, the Jews were pulled out of Egypt and then given the law. They were saved and then told to obey the law, not vice-versa. So too Christ saved us and we are now to obey the law, first to show our love for God, and then for people. So I am in full agreement with you that the Law is there for the purpose of love. I myself do not seek justification from the law. I love the law because it's a very good model of living and loving. But I'm against man-made laws.

      All we can do is put this into prayer and seek God's word more and more.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • SecondMarge says:

      I believe premarital sex is wrong in two ways. If it’s with someone before puberty. It reduces their value as a virgin to that man that owns her. Since we no longer agree that men, fathers or husbands own women, that eliminates one. The other argument is not a biblical one. It’s a social and or economical one. But as I said previously, the Bible is open to a wide range of interpretations.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there SecondMarge

      I do not want to disrespect anyone or vex them any longer with this discussion and it was not my intention that the discussion plot the course that it has.

      That said, I must humbly disagree with what you've said. It is true yes that we each have our own revelation with Jesus Christ, and our own reckoning with the sins in our life, and that we are held accountable for what we know in Christ, and it is true that one can make the Bible say almost anything. But, the Bible is not open to interpretation, and there are verses in it which explicitly state this. The schisms in the church have come as a result of translation errors, greed of money, and other belief systems like gnosticism which infiltrated people's thinking. I do not believe in denominationalism. God has clearly defined wrong from right, and some study is needed to find this out. You can tell me I am being legalistic, but honestly, I'm not seeking justification through the law. But we have all been commanded to keep the law, Jesus said this a few times. So it is important we know what that law is, and while we have the ability and resources, we should study this. James even says that faith without works is dead.

      Don't think that I am also trying to justify threesomes or condemn other actions, no. But there are far too many examples of premarital sex in the Bible not being condemned as wrong. Of course, we are urged to marry, and I wholly believe this. And I also believe that we should be able to express a desire to someone that is not a good desire per se. But there's a difference in expressing a desire and creating a whole story showcasing said desire for people to get off to. I think it would be a double-standard to use a story like that and then condemn the practice. An interesting note on female homosexuality: it was not condemned in Leviticus, only the male form was. And even Romans 1:26 is unclear when it mentions the unnatural relations that women had – because it does not speak about women with women in that verse. But ironically, the next verse speaks directly about men with men. [From MH: not ironic at all. It says "likewise".] This almost seems like a mirror image of the Leviticus laws where it strictly prohibits male homosexual intercourse, but only prohibits women laying with animals. So could Romans be talking about the same laws in Leviticus? I personally believe that a law against lesbian intercourse was not made because of polygamous marriages, where it was possible that a man would lay with two wives – but this is my own idea, don't hold me to it.

      Out of respect for the people on this site, I do not want to elaborate any more on this issue. I was looking for advice on what could be acceptable as good erotica. You say that we can only define what is wrong and right for this site; but in doing so, let's be careful that we do not go against the Bible. I think this site is intended to conform to the Bible, not the other way around.

      I will say again, I do love the way the site promotes monogamy and sex therein as God's ideal; I will not argue there. And the stories have been helpful to me. For the sake of respect though, I only want to carry on this commentary and discussion if it deals with what passes as acceptable erotica.

      Kind regards
      southernmost

    • SecondMarge says:

      Southernmost we see many issues in a similar way. Because of the rules here on MH and clearly stated opinions of many here, most of these topics have not been raised. The rare times I attempted to raise the my comments were not published. When I look back at the misconceptions I was taught about sex and how it affected my life it’s difficult to not speak out. I find most of the “laws” regarding sex in the Bible were needed then. Like laws still on the Government books over where you can leave your horse.
      But even if we don’t go that far, I agree that many restrictions commonly taught just never existed. Women being sexual with other women as you point out is not said to be wrong. In fact the rich and powerful like Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines. Not only were multiple partners part of that life for him, but the women with each other, I believe. Yet his story of adding a woman to his harem is not only in the Bible but often pointed to as how marital sex should be.
      Since this site is about sex within marriage it’s difficult to be accepting of sex before or between marriages. But it is an issue I soon will be facing again.
      I agree that nowhere in the Bible is sex between women wrong, making threesomes with an additional female inbounds. Also, I find watching two women having sex acceptable.

    • MarriageHeat says:

      MH will point out here that sex with more than one partner *at a time* is nowhere portrayed in the Bible—whether positively or negatively. We can make assumptions based on human nature as to what harem life might have been like among the Hebrews, but cannot ascertain God's will on the matter. And an additional fact is that the King (or other polygamous man) was *married* to each of the women, which is not possible in much of the world today. Therefore it is unlikely that erotica of that nature would include Biblical marriage relationships, even like those in OT times.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there SecondMarge

      I really do appreciate your reply.

      I do believe it is very important to raise these kinds of issues, even though it was not the purpose of my post. But in hindsight, such discussion can actually help with the issues of what constitutes as acceptable erotica.

      It is true that the Bible is very unclear on lesbian sex, although, it is more clearer on the prohibition of gay (male to male) sex. I believe the lack of a command against lesbian sex is because of polygamy and the fact that a man may have had sex with two or more wives at once, but this is just my personal opinion, as the MH comment rightly mentions that we do not read about one instance where a man lays with more than one woman at the same time. But let's take your example of King Solomon who had 1000 wives in total about, concubines included: now we know from various passages that sex is a duty to one's spouse and they should not be denied that right in marriage. So, Solomon would have had to please his wives if they desired it. Now, he's a king, so he would have had many duties in the day, but let's say he managed to have sex with one wife and day, that means he would have taken about 3 years until he had sex with his last wife (and this is if he had sex every day). I can't imagine that all of his wives would have waited for so long to have sex. So one may construe that some of his wives would have pleased each other. This seems like the only viable option too because if they sought extramarital sex (i.e. with another man, this would have been adultery). [From MH: Don't forget the option of self-pleasure, of which there is no Biblical discussion, much less prohibition.]
      So one can only put forth a good guess, like I think we both have.

      One could take this further and say that even sex between two unmarried women may be acceptable too, if one accepts that premarital sex isn't sinful. However, I truly believe that if sex does occur before marriage, then it should lead to marriage. And we know that two women cannot get married as the only marriage institution created by God was that between a man and a woman. So while lesbian sex in and of itself may not be sinful between two unmarried women, it does tread a fine line and it is not ideal.

      Lastly, a word on threesomes: I do not believe a married couple having sex with an unmarried woman is right. I say this for a few reasons. Firstly, it may be construed as adultery on the woman's part, as once married, she belongs solely to her husband and she is there for his pleasure, according to the Bible. She is not there for anyone else's pleasure. Secondly, a threesome of this nature may also be seen as an "activity in excess", also known as an orgy. The reason I say this is because if the man wanted sex, he already has a wife to please him. And if he wanted sex with another woman, he could take another wife or see another woman on her own (provided his marriage agreement is not monogamous, and he's not breaking his vows). However, it seems very much an act of excess to involve a married and unmarried woman at once. I think of it like this: you drink whiskey and rum separately, but then you start mixing them and we know that if you mix drinks, it causes one to get drunk very quickly. And we know drunkenness is a sin, because it is an action of excess, at least according to my understanding. So threesomes of this kind seem to be too risky. However, if both women are married to the same man, they are one flesh, and I then do not see the Bible condemn such an action. But I think this topic especially requires a lot of study.

      So to boil this back to erotica, I think I will agree with you that lesbian erotica is not necessarily bad to get off to, both for men and women of course. But I think we'd need to be careful when it comes to threesomes and the like.

      Thank-you again for the reply and I thank you for meeting me in this discussion. I think we definitely need to put these things into prayer and find out how best we can serve the Lord in our actions. I think we need to diligently study these topics in order to avoid having a double standard in the way we see things, and, to know God's word on an issue, and not man's word. So while the views we discuss may not be welcomed here, it may actually help with a more Godly viewpoint – and that's what I care about.

      To end off, I will say I still believe that monogamy is God's ideal and I think we should strive to attain that ideal, especially concerning keeping sex in such a monogamous marriage.

      Be blessed!

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

  7. PatientPassion says:

    southernmost, I'll follow your lead and not expand the discussion any further beyond the original bounds of your post than it's already gone. I just want to say I appreciate your gentle and reasonable challenges to some of our viewpoints. You brought up some points that aren't quite as clear as many of us think. You've certainly challenged me to do deeper study of some issues on my own at some point, so thank you!

    Since the original discussion was around erotica, I'll summarize my basic thoughts on that. Again, I think this is somewhat of a biblical gray area, but I think it's sometimes acceptable. I think for erotica to be God-honoring, the situation or acts described or visually portrayed should be God-honoring. I don't see how it could ever be right to seek out and enjoy something that God sees as evil. (In fact, my devotional today was on how "we honor what we enjoy," so we need to be careful with that.) The other condition is that it has to be healthy. As I mentioned in my first comment on this post, visual erotica may still come with some of the substantial side effects of porn. That can include changes to the brain's arousal patterns which can lead to things like erectile dysfunction, or simply less enjoyment of real sex because the brain has been desensitized or trained to enjoy something else. Sex is a powerful thing and can affect us in strange (and unexpected) ways, so just be aware, conscious and on the lookout for any unhealthy side effects!

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there PatientPassion

      Thank-you for your reply!

      I am glad I have encouraged you into deeper study of the Bible and I think every Christian should diligently seek God's word in their lives, and indeed, I was encouraged to further study when my common viewpoints were challenged. I never sought to challenge opinions when I started this post, but I will say that I aim to challenge any man-made opinion I come across now.

      I agree with you that erotica can be this big grey area and I agree even more that the erotica we invite into our lives must be God-honouring. I don't believe we can claim to follow God and, say, watch videos or read stories of incestuous sex. So I believe we should study what God has to say on sex and erotica, because this is a big thing for 99% of the people on this planet.

      Regarding the negative physical consequences of porn and erotica, yes, I do believe that even good erotica may have a detrimental effect on people. But here one must exercise their own limits, and this is where personal conviction comes in I think. It's like alcohol, one person could handle 10 beers, and another only 1 beer, for argument's sake. But sex is a need of our bodies and I think erotica can be a very good outlet for that. We honour God in our actions, especially if we act in a way He designed us to act, and if we can honour Him in this area too, then let us learn how to do that. I don't think the learning should be too difficult, for Jesus said His burden is light, and His yoke is easy. So surely His rules on our sex lives must be easy as well? I don't think God would have made us sexual beings, and then restricted us in every little way as to make it impossible to release our sexuality.

      I think everything should be practiced in moderation and the grey area of sex and erotica should be put into prayer.

      I truly love this site and what it is trying to showcase. I think every Christian should be geared towards keeping themselves for a monogamous marriage. I think God blesses that, because we have followed His will if we have kept ourselves for marriage. But we must not let an ideal lead us to call something that falls short of said ideal a sin, especially if the Bible has not deemed it a sin.

      Go in peace,

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

  8. NoahZark says:

    Southernmost, you are free to self stimulate. You may even consider offering a sacrifice of living seed as an act of worship to God. Regarding erotica, God added a book of straight out erotica to the Bible. Whatever activities are depicted in Song if Songs favorably can be viewed as approved by God. By the way, the wedding in Song of Songs isn’t until chapter 4, so some of the activity is between the betrothed couple.
    Hope that is helpful!
    Noah

    • PacMan says:

      I don’t mean to be a buzz kill, but I don’t think we can/should take the theology that just because it’s in scripture means it’s approved. Otherwise polygamy, genocide, incest, rape, harems, slavery, prostitution, adultery, wrongful imprisonments, and a lot more is all considered moral. << All of these were spoken of in scripture in a positive/uncondemning way. I think that the decisions about personal convictions is first guided by Scripture, but when it’s a gray area then you need to lean on the guidance of the Spirit.

    • southernmost says:

      Hi there Noah,

      I appreciate your reply a lot.
      Indeed Song of Songs details a very sensual, healthy view of sex and I do think God intended that book to be in the Bible to show us the beauty in sex.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • southernmost says:

      Hi PacMan

      No worries about the buzz-kill, any discussion is welcome.
      I do agree with you that these grey areas require one's personal conviction and guidance of the Spirit. You will note that I myself did not really argue for or against the various topics above, but rather, I tried to explain that we should not call something a sin which God does not call a sin in His Word. And the reason I take this seriously is because I want to avoid a double-standard. I do not want to use erotica that depicts a sinful activity and justify it. That is why I seek God's Word, especially on sex, so that I know how to practice it in a healthy way in my life.

      What I do know is that God would not permit something if it was in of itself sinful. Indeed certain things were permitted to curb the spread of sin, such as polygamy. So, if one has a personal conviction that certain things are permissible, and that they can be used in a way that does not offend one's neighbour or God, then is it sinful for that person? Is it then a sin for someone to get off on a video of a husband making love to his two wives for instance?

      Do you see what I'm getting at? So while personal conviction is involved, I do think there are guidelines if we put ourselves to study of the Word. God would not leave us fumbling in the dark. He has given us the guidelines and the basic commandments to keep. I will reiterate that I seek God's ideal for my life and I want what He's outlined in His plan for me. But let's be honest, we all have desires in us and they're all different. Is it not worth the while to actually find God's mind on our desires? After all, we're human.

      As I always say, these things must be put into prayer. I don't seek to argue any particular mindset, but I just want God's Word to shine through at the end of the day.

      Kind regards,
      southernmost

    • PacMan says:

      Thanks Southernmost. I like your approach. I think I would much rather someone say, “This/That is a gray area and needs some prayer and personal conviction.” But I just can’t subscribe to justifying certain actions that seem to be condemned elsewhere (e.g. fornication) based on the fact it appears in the Bible. It seems like it’s too easy to manipulate Scripture toward one’s whims. So I’d way rather Christian’s just say straight up…. the Bible isn’t 100% clear about this/that, so we are relying on the Spirit’s guidance.

    • Penny4URthoughts says:

      If we are going to use Solomon and his writings as a model then having multiple wives and a harem are acceptable. As was pointed out there are so many things in the Bible as acceptable that no longer are now. Then why do we think everything that was wrong then is still wrong now? Things were said to be wrong for a reason. If you look beyond they were “sins” or “evil” and see why the people of that time needed guidance against things that are no longer harmful because they were then. I believe God has given us the intellect to understand the difference,

  9. NoahZark says:

    PacMan, the Bible never give approval to adultery, rape (both had a death penalty). So I believe you have overstated your point. The fact is that Song of Solomon speaks approvingly of oral and manual stimulation, as well as intercourse. The partners in SoS are intimate before the wedding in chapter 4. And since SoS is specifically about the subject of sexual expression, it is the ideal place to look for godly wisdom on the subject! All scripture is God-breathed and useful for training in righteousness. Perhaps if parents educated their young people about sexuality beyond “just say no” they would be able to meet their own needs and be able to wait for actual sexual intercourse.

  10. Bill Anthony says:

    Southernmost, I think “good erotica” consists of the written word (as we enjoy on this site), photos, and video that depict both exciting sex and feelings of love.

    As I mentioned in responding to another article on here, I have a relevant question. Would it be wrong for a Christian couple who is excited by exhibitionism to take sexual photos or make an explicit video of themselves making love and then enjoy the thrill of sharing it with other Christians? The video would be made by a loving couple joyously sexually expressing their love and passion for each other which is certainly not case with commercial porn!

    From MH: We are giving this question its own post. Stay tuned for link.]

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