What does sexual freedom in Christian marriage look like?
MarriageHeat community, I have been married to my wonderful wife closing in on 5 years now. We both grew up in similar homes. Solid Christian households with strong values and loving supportive parents. Christ has always been then center of our lives when we were single and also since we have been married. We were both virgins on our wedding night and we were able to enter into our marriage with no physical or emotional baggage from past sexual experiences.
Growing up, the extent up Christian sexuality that I heard boiled down to the simple concept that sex and anything related to it was strictly reserved for marriage. Once married, you were free to have sex, but that was more or less the extent of the direction given on the subject. Once I got married and was able to partake in institution of biblically sanctioned sex, I felt a sense of freedom. I now heard things like, “Married Christian couples should have the best sex” and “You are now free to explore sexuality with your wife.” While all of these concepts sounded wonderful and brimming with possibility I quickly found myself in a quandary. No one was explaining exactly how to go about exploring “Christian sexuality”. All that was proffered as guidance was a similar list of “don’ts” that I heard when I was single.
MarriageHeat has been one of the only places that I have come across people who actually appear to exploring Christian sexuality in marriage. In many aspects, it does not take a form that would fit into my conservative Christian upbringing and yet the comments that I read on this site lead me to believe that MarriageHeat promotes more of a mentality of freedom IN sexuality as opposed to freedom FROM sexuality. This shift of paradigm has intrigued me greatly.
What does true sexual freedom within marriage look like? As Paul says, “…not everything is beneficial.” Where there is freedom, there are always boundaries needed to prevent our sin nature from leading down destructive paths. Pornography, for example, is such a destructive path, as are fantasies such as adultery and threesomes, which MarriageHeat states as limits in their beliefs.
I realize that there is not a set of rules and regulations that everyone who visits this site abides by and I am sure that boundaries vary. I am interested to know what married sexual freedom looks like for different couples. Below are some areas that I would love to begin a discussion about the different experiences and views of the members of the MarriageHeat community.
- This is an area that conservative circles would tend to decry as a strict “no” before marriage generally discouraged after marriage but many MarriageHeat commenters have portrayed as actually beneficial to their marriage.
- Outside sexual stimulus. Erotica and stories found on the MarriageHeat website would fall into this category. How do you handle sexual media? What are safe boundaries? How do you use it to enhance and not hurt your marriage? Are there any other resources besides MarriageHeat that you have found beneficial?
- Is there sexual and non-sexual nudity? What are your boundaries?
- Sex toys. What are your boundaries? Which ones have been the most beneficial?
- How do keep creativity and freshness alive in your marriage without pulling inspiration from the large and pervasive culture of unbiblical sex?
My goal is simple. To hear from a group of people who are approaching married sex from a different perspective how they have carved out their own biblical sexual freedom, because it really seems to be working for them.
Ha, funny you should ask. I am actually in the process of writing a post on this on my own blog right now. Here’s what I will say about Christian “boundaries.” There was a time when good christians thought it was wicked for the woman to be above the man during sex, because it was unthinkable that a woman should ever be above a man in any capacity. There was a time when good christians put restrictive chastity devices and even had surgical procedures done on their children to prevent them from masturbating. There was a time when white women were shunned by their families for marrying black men.
We are all very enlightened now, of course, and we see the obvious absurdity of every single one of those examples above. But across time, our very pious brothers and sisters took these convictions of theirs with the utmost seriousness. They backed up their beliefs with bible verses. They were preached about from pulpits.
But boundaries change. Culture shifts and boundaries change and what was once taboo, no longer is, and what wasn’t taboo suddenly is.
So here is what I will say about our boundaries today. Jesus never talked about them. Jesus talked about love. He talked about the kind of love that respects, accepts, sacrifices and endures. But he never talked about boundaries. Far from it, Jesus talked about freedom.
I don’t think anything makes me crazier than the way we as Christians try to make freedom in Christ synonymous with biblical boundaries.
The “boundary” if you must have one, is sacrificial, lay-down-your-life, enduring, uncompromising love, and only love. My husband found years ago that in order to “love” me sexually, he had to be willing to tie me up and pen me up in the closet occasionally. Yeah. That might sound messed up. And it was hard for him at first. But he learned to do it, because in doing it, he accepted me for who I am and who God created me to be. And in doing so, he deepened my willingness to communicate with him, and it ultimately deepened our marriage. More recently, I have learned that in order to do the same thing for my husband, I have to be willing to tell him the names of people I find attractive, or to tell him a fictional story of me having sex with some imaginary person. Do I feel comfortable doing these things? No, not always, but like he learned earlier in our marriage, I have learned that by accepting his fantasies, I am accepting him. I am loving him in a way that no one else can. I am loving the whole him…and not just the safe, tame, christiany part, but the whole “dirty” torn up package–wrinkles, kinks, and all!
So I can’t tell you what your boundaries should be. But I can tell you that if you strive to love yourself, love your wife, and love your neighbors with that deep and enduring lay down your life kind of love that Jesus taught, and if you seek to listen and hear the deep stories and desires that are written into the heart and mind of your spouse, you will be on your way to freedom.
Thanks for responding! This is exactly the kind of perspective I was looking for. I completely agree that the message Jesus came to bring was one of freedom. We are no longer subject to a set of rules and regulations but to the leading of the Holy Spirit who knows the thoughts and attitudes of our heart. The question then becomes what is the sexual immorality of 1 Corinthians 6:18 for those who are free in Christ? Setting aside the obvious examples stated in scripture such as adultery, sexual immorality is a much more interesting topic when you remove the culture-colored glasses. If freedom is living to be everything we were made and intended to be then sexual immorality becomes about sifting through the parts of ourselves that were not meant to be. The challenge can be determining what feels wrong because you were always told it was, what feels wrong because it is the Lord trying to fix, and what feels wrong because you are still getting comfortable in your own skin. I think it does really comes down to the heart.
Eva, you have your own blog? Wow I would love to read it. Is there a way for you to share the link to it without compromising your anonymity on THIS site? I would truly love to read your thoughts (I always enjoy your posts and comments!) but I don’t want to cause any kind of conflict with this site. Let me know if it is possible. Thanks!
Hi Eva, I write as one of your biggest fans and a student enrolled in your school of thought. I think your emphasis on striving to love is correct. I find the example of you and your husband to be very helpful and instructive. I can identify with your comment “Do I feel comfortable doing these things? No, not always…” Like you, my wife and I do things at times that press up against a line that we don’t totally feel comfortable with. Over time, we’ve learned and become convinced of freedoms that we were not aware of earlier in our marriage.
I would say that Jesus’ affirmation of Moses does put Him in a category of holding to boundaries of various sorts. Jesus affirmed that there are do’s and don’t’s for God’s people. This doesn’t answer all of our questions about our freedoms – but it means that we have to read and study carefully and be discerning about what it means to strive for God’s righteousness in a spirit of freedom. I would argue that Scripture is trans-cultural and not bound by the ebbs and flows of cultural mores. Whatever unbiblical legalisms about sex that Christians have wrongly espoused in history – are not because they had right biblical arguments. Their traditions of men in the name of God led to a false view of sex in many regards – much of what is discussed on MH. So, to whatever degree Bible-believing Christians are recognizing their sexual freedoms – it is not because biblical boundaries have changed – it is because of solid Christian interpretations of the timeless and trans-cultural Scriptures – rightly understood.
For example, there never were solid, principled biblical arguments against oral sex or masturbation. To whatever degree God’s people are finding their freedom – it is never because of culture – it comes by the Spirit according to truth.
I think we are still early in some regards in gaining a right understanding of some things about sex in light of Scripture. It seems that God isn’t always in a hurry for all doctrines to be mastered immediately in the history of the church. Please hear me carefully on this: I’m convinced that the essential doctrines were settled early and comprehensively in the early church – but even aspects of the trinity were studied and brought to greater clarity of understanding over time. In recent centuries, the study of last things has been given more attention by scholars than in the first 1500 years of the church combined. Again, God doesn’t seem to be in a hurry to have everything totally settled at once. The Reformation brought even greater explanation to justification by faith in the 16th century and following.
My point: Why should we be surprised that the church is gaining insight into Scripture’s teaching regarding sexual freedom? Our attitude should be to continue to be earnest students of God’s Word and wrestle with its implications for our sexual lives. I think humility would lead us not to throw out everything that neo-Platonic thinkers said about sex – but to critically analyze their sexual worldview. Humility would also give us the right expectations that there is still room to grow and learn – which I think includes learning new insights and applications.
Eva, I need you! Why? You ask questions that I am sometimes to afraid to ask myself. You push me to wrestle with things. With some things I’m left with this: I don’t know so much. I want to encourage you to the utmost. You mentioned a blog – I hope you keep distilling it for us here on MH. God bless you in your study and prayerful pondering. I have had my own imaginary persons, fantasies – some I feel fine with – others I know I’ve gone beyond what pleases God. In all of it – I’m glad God is striving with me and is not done with me. He is discipling me in the area of sex in ways I could have never imagined. I think He also has put you in my path for a reason.
God bless you richly!! LH
Lots of great thoughts here already, and I’m glad everyone’s responding as I think it’s a great topic for discussion. My wife and I have been in the process of trying to reset our expectations for what we brought into the marriage. She expected things to be at one end of the spectrum of sexual liberty, I expected things to lie at the other end, so we’re figuring out where limits just should be staked. It’s seeming to be a bit of a gray area. But this post is very encouraging and insightful for those means. Laura, that’s very neat that y’all started a blog. Would you mind sharing a link to it?
If you search for how I described it above you can find it. It is explicit, but in an artful way, and only involves my husband and I. I don’t want to provide a link because I don’t want to cause anyone to stumble if they struggle with the content.
Hello Laura,
I am trying to find your blog and am having trouble finding it. I don't see your post with the description in it. Reading trough the comments I feel like you that I was raised that sex was bad and nudity was forbidden. My wife was also raised this way. We are trying to explore our sexual freedom through Christ. Any thoughts or help finding you blog would be great! I know I'm late to the party but this is a new area that my wife and I are trying to come to grips with.
Bless you,
Thanks Laura, hey I’d love to know more about how having the tumbir feed has helped. Could you possibly share some more?
Nudity and sex were always something I was taught was shameful and dirty. Recognising that not only is sex within marriage ok, but is incredible and good and freeing was the best gift we have ever received. The tumblr has provided an avenue for us to explore and love each other in a new and exciting way.
First of all, I love posts like this as it’s the main reason I come here, beyond even the stories. I love the intellectual discussion about sexuality as it’s really lacking in my mind, at least to the extent we can here. So, thank you for making such a thoughtful post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this matter, but do have a question — in your first bullet point there seems to something missing, as if you planned to say something before your sentence that says “This is an area…” Can you describe that that “area” is?
More later, but thank you for such a great post.
Yes. It was supposed to read “1) Masturbation. This is an area…” Somehow that word disappeared when I went from draft to submission.
I love this post. To me it means being open to give and receive the physical and emotional love you or your spouse needs without shame so long as it is just the two of you. If your wife loves a 9″ dildo in her pussy more than your 6″ cock, give it to her with joy knowing that you are satisfying her deep needs. If you love to cum on her face more than in her pussy, she can be willing to treat you. For many or most it may be a journey, but it is a journey of love.
I have started looking at the genesis2twentyfive site you mentioned. I haven’t read everything on there yet, but I was curious about what it was that you have been able to get out of that site. How has it served to help you in your sexuality and views on sexuality?
Personally, I have no problem going to nude beaches and enjoying seeing other nude people. Enjoying is not lust. I see nudity as a matter of Christian freedom – to be entered into thoughtfully and wisely. There was a period of my life when I lived in a beach town (outside the USA) where there were lots of hippies, and nudity was accepted and common place. I was not a pastor at that time and felt free to be nude at the beach often, and be with other nude people – sometimes with my wife but mostly she was afraid to be nude. But for me, it was great, I really liked it, and to be honest it just wasn’t the issue so many Christians think it is. It was just incredibly freeing and beautiful. At the moment, I’m in a different context, and I’m a pastor, and my wife isn’t comfortable with it, so I’ve decided to forgo this pleasure for the time being. But I really miss the freedom of it. And I’m still open to resuming it, if and when the time and context are right. Unfortunately so many Christians are so scandalised by social nudity, so it’d be unwise for me to exercise this freedom here and now. My wonderful wife has a fair bit of shame and fear. She worries greatly what other people will think. I hope the genesis2twentyfive site will help her see nudity as beautiful and give her a new freedom to be nude with me, at least privately or semi-privately. I feel the genesis2twentyfive site also has the potential to free her up re our sex life generally, because it has lots of photos of nudity and sex in the context of careful biblical discussion. I think seeing these pictures and gifs actually helps. If MH posted nude photos and images, or had options to click on these, it could be helpful. It’s just another way of sending a positive message about sex and our beautiful bodies. Shame about our bodies is so persistent. But I respect any decisions on this ‘cos it’s just not an easy issue. It’d be great to hear others from MH interacting with the arguments on the genesis2twentyfive site. HornyHubby, if you want to go to enjoy nudity with others, or at a nude beach, I’d say, Pray it through and if your conscience is clear, Go for it. That’s all I have for now.
Stag, I would love to see you flesh out (pun intended) more about how we apply wisdom and thoughtfulness to exposing ourselves to nudity. I love to hear post positive and negative critique – in light of your past experiences. Take us where many of us have never been before. Do you believe there is a risk to be enslaved to things that would not profit us? If so, what is the prudent course in your view. I love nakedness as much as anyone – but I also no there is the “old man” that we are to crucify daily. There is the “new man” too. I really am open to hearing your thoughts. Is there a paradigm that most are missing? Even sex loving MH people – are we not seeing something yet in the area of nudity that you think we should? Are you ready to shout from the MH “reply” rooftops? 🙂
Thank you for raising this here. I look forward to hearing both your encouragements to biblical freedom – as well as prudent warnings consistent with crucifying the old man and the sinful ways he desires. I live in the world of this tension. Thank you again!! God bless you!! LH
Thanks Lovinghusband, you’re the best! Glad you’re back. I love your passion!
Firstly, I agree with what you said to Eva about biblical boundaries. I won’t go into this now, but just briefly… I’d say it like this – love doesn’t replace the law (of God) – rather love fulfils the law. The law (with its boundaries) helps define what love is. Examples: adultery is not love, murder is not love, etc… I actually think this is Jesus’ position. He didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfil the law. He wasn’t antinomian.
Secondly, nudity… like Laura Young (thanks for your comments Laura – and blog! It’s strangely encouraging to me that you have your blog – thanks)… like Laura, maybe I’m a bit of an exhibitionist. Since I was a teenager I was drawn to being nude as much as I could be (which wasn’t much). I absolutely loved it. Sunnydaynudist is a web site by a Christian woman who discovered nudism as a teenager and pursued a nudist lifestyle while maintaining a very active ministry and church life, and then getting married, having kids… introducing friends to nudism… the whole long, long story. I really resonate with her experience and her biblical thinking and faith. For me… back then I had no one to talk to about this sort of thing and there was no internet etc. But yeah, like a lot of people I just loved the beauty and freedom of being in the outdoors naked and having an all over tan – and I went out into the wilderness when I could, to be nude by myself. I loved it. Eventually I married my babe when we were very young. Back then we didn’t know that it was good to talk about this sort of thing before marriage!! When I was married I discovered that my wonderful girl was totally the opposite of me on this. She had no interest in nudity and that has stayed the case for 30 years or more! But I still have hopes!… I tried to encourage her but we didn’t have resources like MH to read to help us understand our freedom in Christ.
I was a Christian leader and actually taught a lot on Christian freedom. I devoured whatever I could read on the issue. I think public nudity is an issue of Christian freedom. I think in biblical times they were much more relaxed about nudity than we are today which is why the prophets were able yo be nude, etc. The Noah incident seems to imply some sexual misconduct not simple nudity… (I won’t go into all this here). Any way, at one point our circumstances changed, we had a break from leadership and moved to a beach town which was very relaxed about nudity on the beach. This gave me an opportunity to be nude as much as I wanted – and I was! Most days I was on the beach in the morning for at least a quick skinny dip, sun bake and prayer. The beach was public but frequented by people who loved to skinny dip. It was a hippy town with many sun lovers doing their morning yoga nude on the beach or whatever. It was a very long beach and it was easy to find appropriate places to be nude – places where others were nude. I was careful with whom and when… In this time I saw many nude people, as did everyone in this town… it was just the reality of the beach life there… if you walked along the beach there would be nude people… and everyone walked along the beach! I didn’t see this as a problem – just a joy. In terms of sexual temptation, it wasn’t any different to any other part of life where I see women. I also worked as a masseur at that time, which was also not a problem… or rather, not more of a problem than every day things like walking down the street and seeing beautiful and sexy women. I guess, seeing nude women (and men) became normal and everyday. As a Christian, it came down to keeping spiritually healthy, cultivating my marriage, keeping an eye on whether this was becoming unhelpful for me or others, being accountable to my wife. If anything, the danger was that this could have become an addiction – ‘cos it was such a buzz. For this reason, it was actually good to leave it behind. It’s been over 10 years now since I skinny dipped. It feels healthy that I don’t need it – it doesn’t run my life – I can choose to, or not to – but it was great while it lasted and maybe some day I’ll enjoy it again… and maybe with my gorgeous woman… if the context is right. So for me, this is what it means to be the ‘new man.’
For me this is a classic case of Christian freedom. Christian freedom is the correct paradigm for this. Not all issues are freedom issues – like adultery, murder… the law of God. We have freedom in this as long as we exercise our freedom wisely… and part of that is realising that other Christians might be ‘weaker brothers’ and we need to care for them in how we exercise this freedom. Also, I think the Apostle Paul believed in exercising Christian freedom robustly – that is, on the one hand really go for it! (you know… eat that pork chop with a vengeance, or whatever the issues were for Paul), on the other hand, don’t let others judge you. Yes, be concerned for the weaker brothers… for a time… but don’t let them look down on you, and help them realise they are wrong so they can be free too. Christian freedom must be robust as well as loving.
Stag – Thank you for all the time you took in writing back! I find your testimony interesting. What you wrote answered some of my questions – but, frankly – it raised even more! 🙂 and that is okay! I would love to hear the dialogue between you and your wife over the years. I’d like to know why your leadership and perspective have not been persuasive enough to change her mind of this subject. That in itself doesn’t solve any issues – but I’m curious how you both have influenced each other in this.
I’d also like to know how you viscerally as a virile man respond to seeing things like this on the beach on a casual walk: Nipples, hard nipples, long nipples, small areolas, large areolas, big tits, perky tits, sagging tits, small tits, smooth pussies, hairy pussies, trimmed pussies, smooth pussies with pronounced clitoris’s, big lipped pussies, big butts, small butts, medium butts, amazing for whatever reason butts. My overstated point is this: Most men I know (including myself) have a reaction to seeing this stimuli – and it is a huge erection. I’ve written before that I’ve spent time at a nude beach in a Scandinavian country prior to my coming to Christ. I’m not as experienced as you – perhaps there is a lessening of erotic effect over time (that would make me sad for different reasons).
I want to be fair and state that I don’t know how everyone would react to this given the circumstances you laid out – that you had much exposure (kind of intended that pun) to this kind of nude experience. Your comment that jumped off the page to me was, “In terms of sexual temptation, it wasn’t any different to any other part of life where I see women.” I have the ability to undress just about any woman in my mind – an amazing skill I know. But, there is a huge difference when she does it for me! That part doesn’t comport with any reality in my life! The covering of clothing seems to help me (I would argue most of us) from giving so easily into lust. Bare tits, pussy, and ass just yell to me “look and lust”. I am like Pavlov’s dog with the bell – except I go erect with the naked bell curve of a woman’s body.
I like your point from Eva and agree – it is not antinomianism (no law) vs. freedom. We first have to wrestle with what the law of Christ is (1 Corinthians 9:21) – and then stake out the vast expanses of freedom that God has given us to roam in. And He has given us plenty!
I am attracted (personally) to nudity. I love being nude at home or in a hotel – when our kids are not around. I love full tans and all that. If it was for my boner issue – which is related to my visceral reaction to naked tits, pussies, and butts. I have a hard enough time with bikini clad women – but if they were exposed – all bets are off. So, Jesus’ lovingly fulfilling the law has not given me the freedom to unleash myself – part of me wishes it were different. I have a sympathetic heart as I read you. I flesh enjoys lusting after naked women – but my Spirit-wrought conscience keeps pricking me. I wish I lived in the pre-fall garden – but redemptive history, and even the cross of Christ alerts me to the fact that the fullness of the restored garden still awaits the final glory of Christ’s coming. The tension that we live in until then calls for our prudence and self-denial – rightly seeing where our vast freedoms begin and where they end.
Stag, I have so many questions!! I am musing on with you here. But I have questions of my own conscience about much. As I mentioned to Eva – she raises points that we need to wrestle more with. If a couple has a place to roam naked – I think that is great and awesome. Go for it. If I saw your hot wife on the trail – and conversed with you and her for a while – something would be growing in my shorts.
Our beds are resolutely free according to Hebrews 13:4. That is a major victory for our freedom argument isn’t it? We know we have total freedom to frolic with our spouses. Agreed.
I’m glad to hear of your self-control in this area – and that it doesn’t run your life. Honestly, sometimes I’m concerned about how much I think about sex – especially if it is hindering me from living for God’s glory in all the fields He wants me in. But, I’m grateful for the grace of God – that He rescues me from myself! He guides and directs me. I’m so glad for the fellowship of our church and the accountability with the saints. Our hearts can tend to stray – yet, God knows how to keep us in the fold. Your testimony with your wife heartens me that God has been faithful to you – to keep you one the narrow road.
Stag, I look forward to hearing more from you. I hope you sense that I am open to listening to you. You are friendly and humble! I really appreciate your spirit. I will let you know what resonates with me from what you say – and what I still need more persuading about.
I love your last line: In our antinomian days – I would want to add, “Christian freedom must be robust as well as loving and obedient to the law of Christ.” Stag, I sense that you want this too! Let’s keep talking. If you ask me really hard questions – I’ll probably tell you at first “I don’t know” – but I’ll do my best to search the Scriptures with you brother. God bless you and your wife! LH
LH-So here’s a question for you. Are you thinking that getting a hard on from looking at a naked woman other than your wife is an act of lust? I just want to clarify this. I’m not sure if that is what you are saying or if you are saying that it would just be embarrassing to walk around nude and have a hard on while you are in the middle of a conversation with someone else’s wife.
The reason I am curious is this. Arousal studies have been done in which men and women were shown videos of various sexual acts. As they viewed the pictures, the participants were asked to push a button if they felt aroused and simultaneously their bodies were also monitored to see if their physical arousal matched their stated arousal. Men were very predictable in taking this test. Heterosexual men said they were aroused by images of women and their monitored physical reactions corresponded with this. Homosexual men said they were aroused by images of men, and likewise, their physical responses corresponded. Women’s responses, though, were completely different. I can’t remember how women responded to the button pushing, but I remember that the button pushing had very little correspondence to their bodies’ actual arousal response. Women could basically be physically aroused by anything. Watching a heterosexual couple, watching a gay couple, watching a lesbian couple, even watching animals…pretty much anything involving sex aroused a woman physically, even though her conscious response with the button pushing might have indicated otherwise.
So I’m asking for clarification because as a woman, apparently, I might get turned on watching the peacocks at the zoo mate (and just for the record, I haven’t had this experience that I know of, it’s just an absurd example). I’m not going to get a hard on, of course, that is going to broadcast this to the world, but apparently if I pay attention, I might realize there is some wetness between my legs. And that’s just arousal. That isn’t lust. Trust me, I’m not lusting after the peacocks. But apparently watching the peacocks might put me in the mood for a completely different kind of cock… 🙂 if you know what I mean…
So I guess I’m curious how you are defining lust. Because I think lust and arousal are two completely different things. And i think that difference is really important.
Eva, I’m not into flattery! I try hard to say what I mean. You made a helpful distinction for me. What got me especially was “I’m not lusting after the peacocks”. I think that is helpful because it does stop short of lust. I would not imagine you after even watching them for an hour – that you would ever develop and desire to jump in with the peacocks. What kind of other cock were you referring to? Just kidding.
I would say that for me – I would be much more susceptible to want to jump on a naked lady on the beach than a peacock – so that arousal potentiality would give birth to lust much easier than with an animal.
I don’t have time for a long discussion now. I’ll continue later. Thank you so much Eva. I have more to say – and your question is helpful. God bless. LH
I agree with Eva. When my hubby sees me, he is aroused, AND he thinks about what to do with me. When another man or woman see us, I hope they are aroused, and do something about it with their spouse. Also Eva, totally understand the desire for a different kind of cock. 😉
This is an interesting question indeed. Does arousal equal lust? This is a very fundamental question to christian sexuality as many of the topics being discussed, nudity, masturbation, and erotica, have some stake in the discussion. This very site is based on the idea that it is possible to be sexual aroused by something other than your spouse and yet that arousal can contribute to better the marriage and not hinder. It seems to me that much of the heart of a new biblically-based sexual paradigm is to redirect arousal toward our spouse in a way that adds creativity and a desire to explore sex together. This of course requires a shift in thinking that arousal is not inherently evil. There are of course some arousals that cannot be “redeemed” due to their nature of being unbiblical and therefore can never benefit a marriage, such as adultery. Mainstream christian teaching essentially takes the stance that, since arousal that is not directly initiated by the spouse is lust, a pure mind is an unaroused mind. Eliminating any and all forms of arousal is therefore the method for becoming lust-free. This becomes very personal and gets back to the how many of the comments in this thread center around married sexuality being based on love and the intention of the heart. Based on the strengths and weaknesses of the individual it may more of a challenge for one person to transfer that arousal their spouse than another. Even with no outside help we are going to get aroused. Before I was married I had moved into a new place and decided not to have tv or internet turned on when I first moved in because I was determined to be as pure as possible. Even with no access to sexual content I still got horny and with my effort to not masturbate, left me terminally frustrated with my plight. Within marriage exploring new ideas means being exposed to new ideas which will inevitably leave you aroused. So the only options are to either abandon exploration that leads to arousal or redefine arousal’s relationship to lust. To me this question of “is arousal lust” is indeed an important one and I would love to hear more thoughts on the subject.
Cool. Good questions! Love it.
1) My wife has a lot of fear that has impacted every area of our marriage. She has recently had significant healing with this, which now opens the door for more things sexually, including nudity. She has always been confident in me with seeing other women on the beach – that has never been a problem for her. She has absolutely trusted me. She came with me but kept her swimsuit on – though sometimes she gave it a go.
2) With temptation when seeing naked women… The reality is that you get used to it pretty quickly and it’s less of a thing. Also you can be sensible and keep an appropriate distance, if you need to. Of course, enjoying is not lusting. I have a high sex drive and I’m an intensely visual person, but you learn self-control. (Which is the case in all of life – seeing women in the everyday.) It’s fun, everyone relaxes, it becomes normal.
3) Yeah I should have said ‘the law of God Christologically understood’ – i.e.. The law points to Jesus (wow!) and Jesus helps us know how the law applies to us as his followers, and he empowers us to do it through his Spirit… etc… and it all centres on love. This is what Paul means, I think, by ‘the law of Christ.’ Yeah, let’s be obedient to the law of Christ.
4) I’m happy to give up this right for others if necessary.
The only other thing I can think of is to ask, Why did I get into nudity in the first place? What drove me to this as a teenager and young man? I think it was me crying out to be seen and loved. Probably I’ve grown out of this need now. I still enjoy skinny dipping of course, but I no longer need it, and I no longer do it. I wonder how many of our desires are temporary until we have found a deeper intimacy and love with God and/or our spouses.
Glad you found it encouraging. I would encourage browsing it with your wife. I personally prefer to know that she knows you view it. Secrets are where it can become wrongly used I think. Maybe my example will help her?
So glad you like it Stag!
From my expirence I see nude situations in two distinct catigories.
1. nudity can be about body acceptance. about looking at ourselves and others and being willing to accept all of us as children of God. We are all flawed. (even the photoshopped porn stars). this type of nudity can be freeing for all involved. (I do it alone on my deck where there isn’t any chance someone would see me). It is done in a spirit of acceptance for all and glory to God. This catigory includes education and art.
2. nudity to entice. This is about entrapping someone. Taking power from them. this can be porn, advertising, etc. It is about addictive behaviors that lead down bad paths. The intent is the problem. It becomes sin when we are attempting to harm or manipulate others. In the end this hurts almost everyone involved whether they admit it or not.
All this said, when a person, male or female, sees nudity now they have the choice. will it be about acceptance and glory to God or about giving away their power for good and right to be led down dark paths? Honestly that choice can be made by some even when no nudity is involved. I believe we know ourselves, that is why the line is so different for each one of us. what it takes to lead our thoughts away from the light is different for each one of us.
That is why I like this site so much. We have a responsibility to help those in our community that are single and/or struggling without being the source of greater temptation.
More may be required to heal those like me that have a deap aversion to sex even though I have a husband to satisfy. For those whose temptations are opposite than mine, a deep need for that kind of love and attention, without access. they need to find a safe place where they can get love and support without judgement to continue overcoming temptation.
Coming up on our 40th anniversary and I would say I’m still learning how to love my wife and that aspect certainly includes the sexual relationship. I would say that time spent together in a respectful relationship makes it easier to experiment sexually. You feel free to offer suggestions and experiment without taking or giving offense. I know all aspects of our relationship have changed over the years aided by a growing mutual respect. I want more than anything to keep my wife happy emotionally and sexually. To this point I would say I am a very fortunate husband
Reading the posts up till now have left me with a few thoughts.
1) Having an open forum to discuss christian sexuality in a positive light is such an important tool to have. No man is an island yet christian sexuality can feel very much so. I have read so many comments on this site where people were relieved to realize that they are not alone in their desires and thoughts and especially those mentioned who were married and are now not. Freedom means sharing. The good the bad and everything in between.
2) There are many challenges to the exploration of christian sexuality. One of which being the fact that there are so few examples of people who have done it well. We are creatures of mimicry. We create by taking inspiration from the world around us and changing it and making into something that now has a part of us in it. This is the challenge of christian sexuality. To explore you must see what there is to see and experience what there is to experience. Therein also lies the danger because almost the entirety of sexuality lies in the secular domain which has no respect for that which would hurt us. In fact, the enemy has so pervaded the “palette” that painting becomes such a challenge that common answer is to simply not try and to just live with the blank canvas you start with. In that aspect the enemy has done a pretty good job of succeeding to keep us from being what we were meant to be. There is also legitimate danger in exploring sexuality without regard for it’s nature. Sex is to bring us into greater union with our spouses in honesty, vulnerability, and love for each other with all of the physical benefits as well. Satan’s plan is always to twist what was created as good with the purpose of deeper relationship into something that drives us away from relationship. Sexual acts that replace our spouse or cause us to become unsatisfied with our significant other because we develop unrealistic expectations are paths that lead us away from the blessing God has given us. It really becomes less about he act i.e. “Is masturbation wrong?” “Is erotica wrong?” and more about the result of the act. This is a more personal thing. For some, masturbation is simply a physical release and for some it becomes a replacement for a spouse who is unwilling. To be open and honest enough with oneself to admit when the line has been crossed is a test of spiritual maturity. No better analogy is found than in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were told everything was theirs to explore with there was only one rule. When they were convinced to seek self above God, it lead them to destruction. Being willing to acknowledge when we are acting out of lust as opposed to love is tough thing to do. What is right and wrong in christian sexuality? I think that largely depends on each person’s weaknesses and strengths. What one struggles with may not be an issue for another. Rules will keep you as bound as the bondages they prevent while being lead by the Spirit will let you roam free in cliff-less fields.
3) Nudity is an interesting topic. Through all of my reading, the bible seems pretty clear post-fall nakedness is generally not encouraged. I have read many of the Genesis2twentyfive sites arguments and I cannot say I was overall impressed with their strength. They seem more like wishful thinking and what should be like in a world without sin. That being said, I have come realize that the rejection of all nudity is impractical. Many fields of medicine require frequent viewing of nudity. This is a far cry from sexualized nudity but the bible doesn’t distinguish between sexual and non-sexual nudity. Herein lies the difficulty. There are of course certain cultures where nudity is commonplace and therefore unsexualized to a degree. Nudity is difficult because it easy to compare our spouse to others and care must be taken when exploring the boundaries. Is it possible to view images of sexualized nudity in such an objective manner? Obivously, as seen in the previous comments, some would say yes. Is this related to my previous statement where what is a problem for one may not be a problem for another? I am not sure. My jury is still out on this one.
I love your comments Thoughtfulwriter! I like your humility, your comment about singles, divorcees, widows, and widowers. A real needy area to be addressed and helped by fellow Christians. I like what you said about the blessing of masturbation. God bless! LH
Okay, so I think I’ve finally figured out how to articulate my concern about the genesis2twentyfive site. But let me preface this by saying first that I don’t think the site is necessarily bad. Obviously, from comments a couple of people have made here, that site has brought some healing to people’s marriages, so it is certainly doing some good somewhere! So, when I say what I’m going to say, I very much might be completely off track. Or even if I am on track, I’m not saying that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater….so to speak. 🙂
So, as I said in my previous comment above, my framework for making any moral choice, sexual or otherwise, comes down to the question of love. What is the most loving thing that can be done in such and such a circumstance? And I try to consider the most loving thing to all the people involved, which in most sexual cases for me comes down to just me and my husband. Having that conversation about what is loving with only two people involved is as easy as it gets. We talk about it. We try to pick the outcome that is going to deepen our relationship the most. And we go for it. If it doesn’t work for one or both of us, we go back to the drawing board and try again. And so even when we feel like maybe we mess up the sexual side of things, when it is just the two of us and we are talking about every little thing that happens, even if the sex part gets weird, the relationship part is still getting deeper. We are still relating to each other as unique individuals. We are still growing in our knowledge of each other as Children of God.
In The Garden, if Adam and Eve had had children before sin entered the world (and who knows, maybe they did, the Bible doesn’t really tell us one way or the other), Adam and Eve and their children and their spouses and whoever else was there would have been living in a very relationally driven, loving community. They would have had very different boundaries for what is “appropriate” than we do today. Naked bodies of unmarried people would have touched and been seen by others all the time. People would have danced or wrestled or slept or swam or whatever else with other unclothed members of their community all the time. They all would have been naked. And it all would have been good.
In my paradigm, the reason this would have all been good would have been because of the loving, relational, respectful community that surrounded it.
So, if I transplant that reason and that paradigm into my life today, I can say I feel good about MH and the written sexuality we share here because I can feel (what I imagine is nearly as close as we can get online, post fall to) that same sort of loving, relational community that they would have had then. (wow, that was a doozy of a sentence, hope it made sense)
As another positive example of this type of post fall lovingly relational community, I have heard of some nude videos (though I haven’t seen them) that the Methodists put out years ago in an effort to help people examine their shame and fear over sexuality. Methodist Christians volunteered to make those videos out of an act of love toward others, and those videos provided healing to many people who were trapped by shame over their sexuality. And I have a good feeling about those videos because as far as I understand, they were love and relationship driven even though the people on the different ends of the video camera never met each other.
But when it comes to the genesis2twentyfive site (at least the way it was when I visited it a year ago, though maybe it is different now), I didn’t feel like there was any sort of relational connection to the persons in the photographs. They were beautiful bodies, but I didn’t know the situation under which they had been photographed. I didn’t know if there was hidden pain or coercion behind any of those pictures or if they had bravely allowed themselves to be photographed as an act of service to others. As I recall, many of those pictures were of models, not of everyday people. And I am personally not a huge fan of the modeling industry and the way it reduces people’s worth to the perfection of their body.
And so when I was at that site, I knew there was no way I could take into consideration the love and relationship component of all of the parties present. And I do not want my pleasure to be at their expense. And so for me, that is why that site makes me uncomfortable. It’s the unknowing, and the uncertainty of who these people are and under what circumstances their pictures ended up on my screen. If I knew the context and the stories behind those pictures, I think I might feel differently about them.
So, I don’t know if that makes sense or not. But that’s my 2 cents on the subject.
On an unrelated note, can I just say how nice it is to have a thread that is finally generating some conversation around here again? I was starting to think everyone had deserted, things were getting so quiet the last week or so.
Eva, you’re sweet. As for me, I haven’t deserted. I’m a bit more quiet at the moment because I find myself having in part a little relapse into one or another aspect of my former aversion… my thought life is mainly troubling me these weeks in the sense that I don’t wanna be disobedient to God but have found myself feeling bad anew for thinking sexual thoughts, like imagining something sexual with my future husband in mind or so, and in the sense that a persistent fear has gripped me anew, which makes me uncertain whether I’ll be able to really do in marriage what I’ve thought I’ll be able to do… My fear being, if I happen not to be able to deliver what I thought I would be able to deliver in marriage, then my future husband would be bound to me in marriage and would end up in an unhappy place… I’m trying to sort all this out in accord with my conscience.
Love and blessings to my sweet MH community! For me, there is no other, and there never will be any other. You’re the best.
So glad to hear from you, PassionateforChrist! Thank you for sharing a little bit of what you’ve been going through these past few weeks, sweet Sister. It has helped me know more specifically what to pray when I come to the King on your behalf 🙂 I don’t know why, but when I read your comment, I kept thinking of that passage in Matthew 14, when the disciples are terrified in that storm and they’re worried that they don’t have what it takes to keep that boat afloat and then they see what they think is a ghost and Jesus shouts through the storm, “Have courage! It is I! Don’t be afraid!” And then He climbs into their boat and the storm instantly stops. I don’t want to read too much into the text and so interpret it my way but I do hope to encourage you, whenever you feel like you don’t have what it takes to keep going, THAT is when Jesus says to you, “Hey, look! It’s Me! Don’t be afraid. I am right here with you.” And He is. No matter how heartbroken or confused you feel, He is climbing into your boat. Always.
PfC- I’m going to echo CML here a little. I’ve been thinking about your post on and off ever since I read it yesterday and have been trying to figure out what to say to you about it. The verse that keeps coming back to me is “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” You were not created to live your life in fear. So, hold tight to that promise. And also, remember the passage about the lilies of the field….you cannot add anything to your life by worrying. Give today’s worries over to your creator, and give him tomorrow’s worries too. And when you find that you have taken them back for your own again, go through the process of handing them over all over again.
I had a specific problem a few years ago, not sex related, so I won’t go into it here. The situation left me in a position where I felt worthless and hopeless and scared of the future. It took me over a year to learn to leave that situation in the hands of God and to quit owning it for myself. When I finally learned to leave it there, though, I got to start watching the fireworks! He started sending dreams and people and words into my life on a weekly, and sometimes even daily basis that could speak to the problem and help rectify it. It has been one of the most personal, most spiritual things that has ever happened to me. To this day, that problem is not completely gone, but today it is only the tiniest sliver of what it once was, but it has been an ongoing exercise of faith for me. Watching this situation slowly and naturally heal has been a daily reminder of God’s care and immediate interest in my life. And being a first hand witness to this miracle in my life has changed me and my faith in ways that I can’t even begin to explain.
So I pray this for you. I pray that you’ll be able to hand your sexuality and your future over to your Living God. But I can’t promise what he has for you. You might be planning and worrying about one specific life journey you are dreaming of, and he might have something completely different and even more beautiful planned for you. And that’s okay. I never would have expected 3 years ago that my pain would someday become the glorious landmark in my life that it has become. But it has. And today, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. And I hope that for you too. I hope you are able to let him take this from you now, and that someday you’ll look back on this time with great gratitude for the extraordinary journey he has brought you on because you were willing to loosen your grip and let him take the lead.
Thank you so much, CMLove!! 🙂
I’m so thankful that God has given me you as a friend and sis in Christ! I have so hoped to hear some words of encouragement spoken over me at this moment in time, and here you are standing so sweetly by my side. Thank you for your love and support! Thank you for encouraging me! God bless you, my dear! <3
Dear Eva, thank you so much for sharing all that!! This was deeply moving, and like CMLove’s encouraging reminder, it does hit home with me.
Sometimes I get so frustrated with myself… Here I am, having made, to me personally, unbelievable progress throughout the past year, all of it only by God’s grace and guidance in an area of His choice alone, as I would have never ever tackled it myself, and these weeks all of a sudden, it seems to slip slowly right out of my hand again… and I try to get my grip anew but I can’t make sense of whether it all happens because I may unknowingly have stepped outside of the frame He had given me to be free in that area or because I’m unconsciously backsliding into my old thinking pattern… I love your reminder about casting my cares and everything that would weigh on my heart on my Savior Jesus! I’m certain I’ve gone overboard with pondering these days and it does no good. It breeds confusion. And confusion is not of God. The unknown is the ground to step upon for the believer – not blindly in our own selves but in trusting dependence on God, and guided by the light of His Truth… Truth to be found in His Word and in the personal experiences of Him that He has blessed each of us to have on our journeys. The Bible tells us to be careful to not allow the Enemy to take away again the freedom God has shown us we could have in Christ once He has led us into a new level of that freedom in whatever area. We are to stand where His Grace has led us, knowing that He has gone before us and walks beside us and has our back always. So, as I stand, this is the personal Truth I am to hold on to: I know without the shadow of a doubt that God started all of this area in my life – and the Word promises me that what God starts, He will bring to a flourishing finish. I may need to actively remind myself of the lessons He taught me in the beginning of all this as a refresher. I shouldn’t lose out of sight that my confidence and assurance are never supposed to be in any other place but in God alone. Thank you Eva and CMLove for the great reminders you’ve given me here and for pointing me to His Word! You’ve stirred some good stuff in me that I will have to take hold of and meditate on afresh and anew… 🙂
God bless y’all!! <3
I think the lack of relationship is key. Excellent point Eva. I think that’s the problem I have with him. He says it isn’t porn, but some of the pics are models and porn stars. He even has (had?) some leaked celebrity pictures. That is, I think, what make our photos different. We are a married couple, enjoying each other. And it is beautiful. At least in my humble opinion. 🙂
I think all this discussion is wonderful. What’s interesting is that it seems we all believe in sexual freedom — more than say, 90% of Christians would believe — but even within our own community there seems to be different views as to where the line should be drawn. I tend to steer away from “thou shalt not” (look at that website; view that images; etc) type rhetoric and instead believe in adopting more of a “caution ahead” approach. That’s my take on the site in question.
Overall, I do believe that re-thinking some of these issues — specifically, what is healthy and what isn’t, and what the Bible requires and what it doesn’t — is healthy and it’s completely refreshing to see that others are thinking the same things. I am sure some of us could have an ongoing chat about this that could last for days, as there are so many interesting aspects to this discussion that intrigue me. I’m not even sure where I fall on some of the specifics.
For instance, as I’ve said before — many Christians would object to the very site we’re on. They’d consider it porn or sinful. I get this from one standpoint, but it just seems so shallow to me upon deeper examination. How is reading about married couples having great sex sinful? I just will never be able to wrap my head around that.
However, what if we pushed it a step further? I recall the “nudity in movies” discussion a while back. What if a married couple in a movie has great sex that was part of the plot and the scene is extremely steamy, showing the motions and some nudity — but not completely graphic. Would we object to that? I certainly wouldn’t, yet I think most Christians would, perhaps because they’ve become so beaten down by all the films which have such scenes that don’t involve a married couple. I don’t think there is a lot of difference between the written and shown version, though I understand the written version is just words, where the TV/movie version has to involve real people, even if they are actors.
Or, rather than the questions about nudity you all raise — what if two or three couples go on a vacation together, say to a resort where they share a cabin, where their private quarters are in ear shot. Is that sinful? I don’t think it is, but I can bet you that most Christians would say to avoid that.
I could go on and on with real world examples that many — even those who embrace a generally more sex-positive view of the world — would object to.
What’s funny is that I say all this coming from a point of view where I’d be happy with a modest sex life. However, I care about these issues for the sake of others, so I enjoy the discussion we are able to have here.
SpringLovers, that was a great post. I am currently working my way through the genesis2twentyfive site. I like your summary here. Very accurate.
A couple of questions I have for you though: How does your wife feel about you doing this? Does she give her full support? Is she okay with you viewing nude women that aren’t her? Does she view it with you? If so, how does she handle it when you come across a picture or video of a woman that she feels is prettier than her? Or that has bigger boobs or is skinnier than her, etc? Does that ever make her feel self conscious or less sexy because “she doesn’t look like that?” If so, how does she handle that?
And does your wife enjoy looking at pictures of men as well?
HornyHubby, thanks so much for your comment. Honestly we both enjoy it quite a bit but with limits and in small guarded portions. In fact it was she who told me last night that she wanted me to read an erotic story to her and why I ended up on MH. I hadn’t been to this site for a little while and after we read our stories and had our fun I saw the postings about genesis2twentyfive. It’s hard to just write a quick comment because sexual sin can be so serious and I want to try and cover the bases so that we don’t lead anyone into sin.
We don’t visit porn sites but select sites that have tasteful erotic offerings and even then have to filter out some things that are strictly forbidden in our hearts such as homosexuality or threesomes etc. We often will start watching something but change it because it doesn’t work for us. We also do this for some MH stories that just don’t fit right. Most often because the people are too young as we are in our 50’s, if either of us don’t feel comfortable and can’t relate to the images or acts then we just change it. I might be enjoying something but if she isn’t I change it.
We honestly laugh a lot sometimes at their perfect bodies especially the well hung men. She doesn’t envy bigger boobs or skinny women and I don’t care that I’m not as well endowed as those men we see. I’ve always cherished my wife’s body and she cherishes mine. We have been married for almost 25-years and our bodies have changed a lot, trust me they are not perfect except for one another. My wife has had serious medical challenges though the years. At one point was in bed for 4-years while our kids were young and then later gained an extra 50 pounds because of medicine she was on but I still cherished her body. I’ve always told her how much I loved her and encouraged her to be her best and be confident in spite of her challenges. She is the only body for me to celebrate union together. I love her greatly and she knows it.
At one point she started walking on a treadmill and praying daily and it changed her life completely. She has lost her weight, her chronic illness subsided and has a beautiful 50-year old body today. We both try to walk and pray as much as we can now to keep the extra pounds off and keep healthy.
To me there are two things that always need to be at the top, our relationship with God and our relationship with our spouses. We are very blessed and very much like each other sexually and we respect each other for who we are. I understand that not all marriages are like that. I’m so encouraged when I see other couples finding freedom “IN sexuality” that Committed so eloquently shared at the beginning of this post. But I also understand that we don’t always get there at the same time.
There are things my wife is still working through like solo masturbation because of the rebuking she received in our old church, she is working toward freedom but just isn’t quite there yet and that is ok. I know many men and women who wished their wives or husbands would approve and join in their freedom but it doesn’t always come that easy. Our freedom came very slowly and cautiously from years and years of confession of our acts to one another in this area when I would look at images or she would view a spicy sexual scene in a movie, but then through serious study, discussion and prayer we very slowly realigned our boundaries in prayer and openness before God and found freedom in those things that we now do not believe are sin for us. It will always be different for someone else.
genesis2twentyfive was such a great gift as I found someone who was very much like me even though I don’t buy into everything he writes for my own life. I never felt like I lusted at all at any of the images I saw and my wife always shared the same but it was always labeled as sin in our upbringing and churches to EVER have a sexual thought with a image in your mind. When my wife and I were REALLY honest about our daily sexual thoughts it blew our minds. I never would have believed that she was that sexual and she was shocked about mine but I believe today that we have actually corralled many of those thoughts with better understanding of what is sin and what isn’t. Sexual thoughts or even arousal is not lust in our minds unless it is coupled with action either in the heart or actually pursuit of sinful activities. We can be aroused just by being a formal dinner with many other well dressed and dare I say slightly sexually and suggestively dressed Christians who have put on wonderful semi-low cut dresses, pants and shirts for their spouses with perfume and cologne. We can’t wait to get home and into the sack with each other but be honest it was the other Christians that may have actually aroused some of our sexual senses when we just wanted to stay at home and go to sleep a couple hours earlier. Was my wife jealous of the other Christian women’s big boobs or nice butt that I certainly saw as attractive? Am I concerned that the confident, attractive, loving and Godly man who was talking and laughing with her will steal her heart away? How about at the swimming pool where beautiful bodies are on display…do I or my wife lust with another person? Absolutely not in our marriage but in others it may be a strong issue. For those I would never recommend going any farther with erotic images, they would likely need to work on their own marriages first. Many Christians would not agree or understand our journey but we truly believe God does and we want to honor him. Thanks so much for this forum, it really has been encouraging to share amongst other Christians.
WOW! Thank you so much for your comment, SpringLovers! It was such an encouragement to me! I have been a member here at MH for a little over a year and God has used it to completely change my life, not just in the sexual aspect but the emotional and spiritual as well! I have been reading and “soaking in” all the comments this post has generated (especially from Eva, Horny Hubby, Loving Husband, and Stag-on-a-hill) and, though I haven’t entered the conversation, I have been pondering all that has been said. I want to thank you so much for sharing your wisdom/experience about Gensis2twentyfive. My husband really enjoys the site and, while I do read the articles and browse the pictures, I was not sure if it was “pure and holy” and I was not completely understanding where my husband was coming from when he would share how his relationship with Christ was getting deeper because of it (rather than putting a wedge between him and His Savior). Reading your comments have really opened my eyes as to the freedom my husband must be feeling. You have to understand, my husband is as conservative as they come so even the fact that he feels free enough to be on Genesis2twentyfive is a huge thing, much less that it has changed how he views sex and the beauty of the creation of God. But, I’m rambling….I really just wanted to say, Your comments were so very helpful and I thank you for listening to the Holy Spirit and writing down your heart and your findings concerning the site. Hope to hear more from you! May God continue to bless you as you follow Him!
CMLove,
I can’t tell you what a joy it is to read your post. I’ve been working through this with my wife pretty much alone for the last year and it is so encouraging to have a forum of discussion. It sounds like your husband is a bit like me. I’m so encouraged that you put God first and question whether this whole idea is really ok or not.
I equate this journey to climbing a mountain. It is a tough walk with a lot of dangerous paths that don’t lead to the right place. Many Christians have been told that you should never even attempt to climb or even touch the mountain. However when you stop and go to the edge for a wonderful view or have finally reached the top and start to celebrate with God, Satan is there to and wants you to take that one extra step over the edge. With freedom comes responsibility and I’ve certainly been over the edge a few times and have had to come back and steer clear of Satan.
I’m so glad my wife is walking the journey together with me and we both make sure we are walking with God. It sounds like you and your husband are doing the same. Please keep me updated with your journey as well!
I first read the Genesis2twentyfive site quickly then picked some areas of specific interest but I really got the most out of it when I just read the entire thing all the way through a couple of times while studying it out with other resources and of course the Bible. That way I believe I was able to mostly understand his intent and then take caution where my life was different. I still have questions and am still studying it out. Now I’m grateful to have the MH posts to work through some of my own questions as well.
I still struggle sometimes on who I’m looking at, who they are and what does that all mean in the full scheme of life and the family of God. That is deep thinking for me. I certainly will welcome other thoughts and discussion. May God be with you as well as you follow him!
What a great analogy of climbing a mountain! I never thought of it that way but it really helps me understand the excitement of sexual freedom and also the importance of being discerning. I shared with my husband what you commented about Adam Turner’s websites and then your reply about the analogy of the mountain and he said, “I like this guy.” That’s all he said but, if you knew him, that’s saying a lot! LOL Understandably, he doesn’t have a lot of men to talk to face to face about sexuality and particularly Genesis2twentyfive so you have been an encouragement to him. Thank you for that!
I applaud your wife for being your partner through all of this rather than letting it put a rift between you two. Praise the Lord! Thank you both for sharing a little bit of your journey with us! I hope to hear more from you dear brother and sister in Christ!
My personal, perhaps too simple, take on the genesis site is that while much of the writing and insight on Song of Solomon is refreshing and needs to be said, there is also a “creepy” side to the site(s) that bugs me. It almost seems like an obsession in some ways. I very much prefer the community aspect of MH.
okay, I mean I get that nudity is beautiful and I am an artist who actual does depict nudes once in awhile in my own stuff, but this site… genesis2twentyfive, there is a difference between artistic depictions and nudity meant to be masturbated to (I know because sometimes I draw porn of my husband and I doing sexual acts together or provocative drawings of my body for my husband and hide it in his underwear drawer to surprise him with and at that point I don’t consider it art, I consider it something meant to be masturbated to by my husband). After taking a look, I do believe it’s a type of virtual sex place to go and distract yourself from your own spouse to masturbate. I think it also uses a bunch of carefully thought out “this is justified” lingo because of “blah, blah” and I don’t buy it. A part that really bugged me was when he went on to say the type of woman that he would masturbate to after telling us that we SHOULDN’T TURN WOMEN INTO A JUMBLE OF BODY PARTS but… “if you are skinny and athletic and have medium sized boobs (not big ones or small ones) and a small butt, I will cum on your picture”. Wow. So much for not turning us into a pile of body parts! I found it creepy. My take.
I think this conversation is super thought-provoking!
I would be interested to hear everyone’s take on this scripture:
1 Corinthians 6 (NLT) 13You say, “Food was made for the stomach, and the stomach for food.” (This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them.) But you can’t say that our bodies were made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. 14And God will raise us from the dead by his power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead.
15Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! 16And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, “The two are united into one.”d 17But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.
18Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. 19Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, 20for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.
What does it mean sexually to honor God with our bodies? It’s clear in the bible that treating sex like it’s just a simple act that has nothing to do with a soul point of view isn’t very scriptural. I believe, like in this scripture, it’s meant to create a “one” bond between two committed people, something that shouldn’t be taken lightly. I’m sure you all know, I’m for playing out fantasies and enjoying kinks and role playing as it’s a great and healthy way to explore thoughts and desires in a safe, holy, environment. I feel if we could respect each other’s couple boundaries and bodily boundaries out of love, there isn’t anything necessarily wrong with witnessing a couple having sex or anything wrong with seeing nudity. But because we do live in a fallen world, I don’t believe it is possible to attain perfection on this earth, and different people have different struggles. One just has to experience evil, especially the sexual kind, to realize how messed up this world is and know it’s not possible to have a sexual utopia here even if we personally wanted one and felt comfortable in our own spiritual walk in that way. The WHY to our actions in this department are so important. I think everyone in their own heart knows what the “why” is and whether it is respectful and loving of the person they made a commitment to and their love for God.
Not sure if this will get a reply back do to the late coment. Silver, I stumbled across the Genesis25 website before this post came up actually, and to be honest it does seem a bit far fetched especially since a lot of the links are to actual pirn sites,despite being in “better taste”. That sexual utupia without lust but only beauty is a dream not to be despised,but I don’t see it happening in this life. I’d love to look on every woman despite their clothes or lack thereof, or to veiw others having relations without stumbling, but I’m only a fallable human in afallen world. I want to only look apon my true beloved with that intense desire. But because the mind is so easily enflamed by the form of another I have found that staring at another is going to bring me into trouble even if done in initial innocence.