Can Christians Share Erotic Videos?

Recently, MH has posted several discussion questions regarding erotica and masturbation, especially for Christian singles. Interesting topic!

I have a related question: would it be wrong for a Christian couple who is excited by exhibitionism to create an explicit video of themselves making love and then enjoy the thrill of sharing it with other Christians? The video would be made by a loving couple joyously sexually expressing their love and passion for each other within marriage which is certainly not the case with commercial porn!

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113 replies
  1. AlwaysReady says:

    hmmm…. interesting. I'll be honest and say I know what I WANT or WISH the answer was. But my real answer is I'm not sure or even leaning to I doubt it. That being said I can point to know real scripture that forbids it.. so .. I'll be here for the comments.

  2. A Better Pastime says:

    All I know is that my wife has said repeatedly: "if I just knew they were married, I'd be ok with it". From our discussions about watching videos of other couples having sex, I know that my wife would actually celebrate the opportunity to watch videos of another couple having sex if she knew they were also Christian. As Christians, we certainly do celebrate reading about another couple having sex in the Song of Songs.

  3. HigherQuest says:

    Before I directly address a possible answer to this question I’d like to discuss one passage of Scripture that often gets misunderstood.

    An interesting passage of Scripture “appears” to address this but doesn’t really. In Ezekiel 23 God is speaking through Ezekiel regarding His anger with Israel for their gross immorality. It is interesting that He directly discussed pornography, but in so doing He distinguished between the issue of porn turning a person on and that person seeking the actors in that porn to have sex with.

    In the following scene He discusses an immoral woman being shown Chaldean porn on some wall. She gets understandably turned on by what she sees. No sin in being turned on… BUT, she takes it to a place that transitions it from being normal human response to seeing something sexually stimulating to it becoming sin for her. How? She lusted for them with intent, which is a clear violation of Matthew 5:27 and 28. Her intent was to bring those depicted in the porn to her home so she could have sex with them. What so turned her on? Ezekiel 23:20  and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses. She turned her horniness into an action to seek a sexual connection with those who turned her on. This is ALWAYS sinful!

    Ezekiel 23:14  But she carried her whoring further. She saw men portrayed on the wall (I.e. Pornography), the images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion, 15  wearing belts on their waists, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them having the appearance of officers, a likeness of Babylonians whose native land was Chaldea. 16  When she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 

    So in Scripture we see two very separate forms of eroticism:

    1) An erotic picture, literature, or discussion that serves to express erotic pleasure and turns a person on.

    2) Seeing, reading, or hearing of erotic things and seeking to experience those things with people outside their spouse.

    The first is just fine. The second is serious sin.

    So, what does this tell us about Christian couples who video their times of sex together and then send them to other people who are only interested in being turned on by what they are portraying and seeing? There may be nothing sinful about it at all, if it doesn’t lead to having sex with those who view their sex videos.

    It amounts to nothing more than what couples do when they get together to share pictures of a vacation with all kinds of nature pics. Whether it’s a beautiful sunset, a rock formation, a river, or flowers, ocean scenes, or a beautiful set of tits, a gorgeous cock, and two married people enjoying sex together. They are morally the same, so long as it doesn’t lead to sexual touching with those it is shared with.

    I know this comparison will seem ludicrous to many Christians, and understandably so, given their conditioning. If they have all their lives been told that seeing such sexual things is automatically sinful then how else could they view such erotic pictures? But, if Christians recognize there is a huge difference between seeing and doing then such seeing becomes acceptable and enjoyed.

    I think it would be a wonderful thing if there was a format for Christians to send their sexual adventures with their spouse for others to see, be turned on by, and enjoy. Why not? It can create wonderful and sexy friendships with people, encourage them in their sex lives, teach techniques to those who lack experience, and give new ideas for sexual adventures for their sex lives. These are all positive things.

    So what are the risks? Well…here are just a few:

    1) First, be as certain as possible that the ones viewing those videos have already settled that their consciences are not violated by seeing such things. That is an important spiritual process that all Christians must go through before they view any erotic content…either on TV, in porn, or the videos of their friends.

    2) Know that if those videos get into the hands of some people it could cause them to seek you out for actual sex, so passing along a video to ANYONE could cause real problems.

    3) A recorded and shared video could end up accidentally being viewed by friends, family members, employers, pastors, other Church goers, etc., who would not appreciate them and could lead to the complete destruction of very important relationships.

    4) It could confuse young children who have not been trained to understand that sex is a normal behavior, not sinful, and something they will one day thoroughly enjoy, so that if they see it prior to marriage they just have to understand that they must wait to experience it until they are married. I personally don’t think allowing small children to see such videos is a good thing, though neuroscientists are currently studying this and are not so certain it is a bad thing, especially when seen with their parents, since they are seeing porn online anyway when their parents aren’t looking.

    These are very real risks and should concern anyone sharing their sex life with other people. If after evaluating these risks couples feel they can trust their friends with such videos then that should be just fine. I personally think the risks are too high. I wouldn’t do it. I’d like to do it, but I wouldn’t do it. I see far greater risks than rewards.

    But, there is a novel option and that is to setup your laptop near your bed, sign into something like Skype with the person you want to share your live love making with, point the laptop cam at your bed and go for it. I think this approach is far better than making a video recording and sending it to someone. Along with the Skype approach you would want to require of the person you were sharing your live sex episode with that they NEVER record it. If you are certain you can trust them then you should be good to go. It would be nice if they would do the same for you and share their sex episodes. This way, they can be having sex with their spouse while watching you and your spouse and everyone is being turned on by the views. When everyone is finished you can talk with each other, express appreciation, share tips and ideas, and strengthen your relationship with each other. Again, I know most Christians would think this approach is soooo far out there, but what does it matter that they would think since you are only going to be discussing such things with the people you know and trust and who share your same perspective on the matter.

    My wife and I don’t currently have a set of friends who we’d feel safe with trying this out on, but I must admit I’ve been envious of hearing of others who have done this and regularly do it. It sounds like they have a blast…

    Have fun!

    • Mercury7 says:

      Higher Quest, I want to say thanks for giving careful consideration to scripture, and going on to draw out some applications for us today. Very well written and thought out, thank you.

    • WakaWaka123 says:

      As a single man who is a virgin. I'll be honest I would love to see what actual loving christian sex looks like. That said I know it would be basically impossible to find a video of what your describing.

  4. Bill Anthony says:

    I think “good erotica” consists of the written word (as we share and enjoy on this site), photos, and video that depict both exciting sex and feelings of love.

    If a Christian couple’s sex life together is enhanced by creating photos and videos, should they be allowed to share their homemade erotica with others who would enjoy seeing it? Couples could protect their anonymity by carefully editing what they share as they legally explore their exhibitionist excitement. Their sharing would also enhance other couples’ (such as A Better Pastime) sex lives.

    I believe we’re already enjoying our exhibitionist natures as we write and share our erotic stories on this site which we obviously know causes others to become sexually aroused.

  5. Southernheat says:

    I would think sharing the video with another couple that you know is opening the door to temptation. What if the other wife or husband started to fantasize and lust for the other’s spouse? Videos of ourselves to watch an enjoy I’m okay with; sharing them still seems to cross the line for me. Watching couples on a tutorial learning techniques is ok with me. Not saying the video wouldn’t be a turn on, but not a line I’m willing to cross.

    • SecondMarge says:

      Open the door to temptation? Probably no more than a double date. Eating the other wife’s cooking. Seeing their belly button on the beach. I’m not much of a believer in “coulds”. Nothing in the Bible against it. In fact historically people saw each other have sex routinely. If one's love of their spouse and Jesus is that weak, their marriage was probably doomed anyway. It sounds like good fun that will make your sex life with your spouse better. I say if all four people approve, go for it.

    • LilaY69 says:

      I agree with you. I think going out of your way to share videos with another couple that you know is not really a good idea.

      'Making the intent' is where I see it to be the most problematic. In the same way, I think making the intent to have sex in the presence of another couple so that they can watch or vise versa, is not a good idea. I believe it's different from accidentally coming across a couple having sex, and watching.

      Maybe sharing videos anonymously, and watching other married couples make love. But I don't think it would be healthy for your marriage to do it frequently.

  6. Bill Anthony says:

    I agree with LilaY69 that sharing home made visual erotica with a couple you know might not be a good idea.

    But sharing with others on a website where they maintain their anonymity would be a turn-on for the exhibitionistic couple as well as sexually exciting for those viewing.

    Am I just rationalizing this as being Christian pornography created and shared between loving couples because it would be extremely exciting for everyone involved?

  7. NoahZark says:

    Perhaps one thing to do is spend an afternoon with other Christian couples and, with no swapping, see what works well for others and get some helpful ideas for your own marriage. Not exhibitionism, but more like peer mentoring.

    • Mercury7 says:

      Fascinating concept, NoahZ. I doubt that it could ever happen as you envision. But I wish that an older Christian couple had taken my wife and me "under their wings" to mentor us when we were a young and inexperienced couple. We would have been very blessed to have that help.

    • Tulsa says:

      Actually, it can happen much like that, although, in our case it was only one couple. Not something that we would do with a crowd of couples, or an unknown couple or couples either. Also not something we did many times.
      I can say that it certainly helped the other couple!

  8. TPC says:

    I appreciate that MH provides a forum for honest questions and discussion. For me it would be a slippery slope of temptation. I think of David and Bathseba. She was taking a bath and he was just sitting on his balcony. He admired her beauty. He could have gone inside and had great sex with one of his wives but instead he called for Bathsheba, which ultimately lead to adultery and murder. I think the Lord uses this as a cautionary tale. It's not a passage with a command but it provides a loving warning much in the same way a parents tells a teenager that "not much good happens after midnight."

  9. ATrain says:

    C’mon y’all. You know the answer to this…
    HigherQuest, with respect, to suggest that viewing a sunset and watching a couple having sex are “morally the same thing” is not supported by any Scripture or Christian practice for the past 2000 years.

    • Penny4URthoughts says:

      I would love to read the verse in the Bible that says “Thou shalt not watch video of another Christian couple having sex”. […]

      As far as practice? People for hundreds of years shared living quarters in a one room building that often included multiple families, generations, and animals. The women still had offspring that were not from immaculate conception. The idea we should not watch or be watched was invented hundreds of years later when sex became an evil thing, most likely by the same group that decided Priests may not marry.

      This is why I think debating religion and politics leads nowhere good. People come to a conclusion, form an opinion, or are told something by some member of the clergy and then they defend that theory even without clear evidence to support it.

      But it isn’t my intention to change anyone’s mind, simply to clarify your comment.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      "Is not supported by" doesn't have quite the same meaning as "is refuted by". There doesn't need to be a verse that explicitly condemns an action for a person to find it morally objectionable. Nor are our morals always based on "clear evidence" but on our own decisions (or acceptance of teachings) of how to apply what we understand to be true. Porn absolutely is a moral issue and one we will not all agree on. But when discussed peacefully, we can come to grips with how others can see things differently than we do and make different decisions than the ones we make *without* condemning each other for doing so. I think that is somewhere good that such conversations can lead.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      I fully agree with ATrain's comment and response. The sunset, or a sunset, and purposely choosing to sit and watch the sun set, is [not?] the same as an adult pornographic video, or choosing to sit down and watch two people have sex. They are apples and oranges, one is a moral issue; while the other is not.

      @Penny4URthoughts: is nothing a moral issue if isn't stated as an explicit command in the Bible?

      ATrain's comment was absolutely clear, and correct to begin with[…]

      [From MH: Edited for tone.]

    • Penny4URthoughts says:

      If it is not explicitly stated as being wrong, it is up to each person to make the decision for themselves. Since it is not stated as wrong in any Bible, any person may conclude it is no different for them than a sunset or meal. The separate status for nudity and sex is one created by man, well after sins were defined by divine inspiration. If you choose to read into certain verses that watching or being watched is wrong for you, don’t participate.

    • HigherQuest says:

      ATrain, I hear where you are coming from, and I for one am always desirous of walking in that which the Bible directly supports, or in many cases…walking in what it doesn't necessarily directly address but also doesn't indirectly oppose. Certainly we can't expect the Bible to speak to each and every moral question we might have, and down throughout human history Christians have favored or disfavored many things they believe the Bible indirectly addresses.

      Some Christians favor nude bathing in the presence of others who share the same liberties. Others reject such behavior outright. Neither one are directly addressed in the Bible, but believers have leaned one way or the other based on their analysis of that which the Bible directly addresses and either forbids or permits. So, is nude bathing always sinful or always permitted? I honestly don't know the "always" aspect of such questions, because one person's safe liberty is another person's moral downfall. It is the same for drinking alcohol. One Christian can enjoy a glass of wine and never approach or desire drunkenness, while another believer knows full well that the moment they put a glass of wine to their lips they will progress towards drunkenness and damaging behavior.

      I encourage you to carefully study the impact that two early theologians had on the development of Christian moral thinking – Augustine and Jerome. Note where they derived their interpretational influences from, how they developed those, and the HUGE impact their perspectives have had on Christian sexuality throughout the ages.

      While I would agree with you that the vast majority of Christians throughout the ages have not favored nudity, allowing others to view their acts of sex with their spouses, or any forms of exhibitionism, there have been those who, having considered the influence of these two men, have come to the conclusion that their negative perspectives have not been helpful, edifying, biblically accurate, or honoring of the Lord's human design as regards their sexuality.

      I respect and understand the impact of the centuries of negative conditioning that the teachings of these theologians have had on believers, and I have no desire here to influence any believer to violate their conscience, but in the interest of embracing the truth as it is in Jesus, I encourage all believers to carefully study these themes to see whether they may have been conditioned to think of sex in ways that God Himself does not.

      So, to me and many other Christians who love Jesus with all our hearts, viewing others having sex, or walking naked down a beach, or sharing erotic stories of their enjoyment of sex with their spouses is very similar to the appreciation I have to God for a beautiful sunset, a deer feeding by a stream in the early morning hours, or a majestic mountain freshly covered with new snow. To my mind, they all represent manifestations of His goodness, His design, His love of His own, and His desire to bring us pleasures of many kinds.

      I do not imagine myself ever favoring the sharing of my or my wife's body in actual acts of sex with others outside my marriage, but I do enjoy the nakedness and sexuality of those who willingly share it with others, and I think that it would be just fine for there being some context in which these things can be shared safely. But if such freedom violates your conscience, then I think you do well to maintain your strong position against it all and allow that to guide your choices.

    • HigherQuest says:

      One more thought ATrain…

      Please do not interpret the following comment as any form of attack on your personhood, simply an observation…

      When you reference the "2000 years of Christian history" as support for your position, I'm sure you are aware that most Christians throughout history also do not like, support, or use the terminology that is frequently used in the story telling here, or even the erotic nature of the stories told…I.e. such terms as "fuck, cunt, cock, and pussy" , and the intensely graphic nature of the stories, yet you appear to accept those in the context of the erotic stories that are shared. I'm assuming you are not a Troll, and you actually appreciate and are turned on by the things shared on this site. Therefore I suspect you may, yourself, be in transition away from the negative influence of Augustine and Jerome, but have not yet found the liberty to enjoy some of the things that other folks writing here do. Is this possible?

      For myself, if I had visited this kind of site 10 years ago I would have been absolutely shocked, blown away, and offended. My journey has been slow, deeply studied, and engaged in with much prayer. Perhaps your journey is at its beginning stages and you too may find your thinking will transition over time. Please don't read this as a condescending approach to your very genuine concerns. I do not see myself as elevated or better than you, just because I've found some liberties you haven't. I simply share these things in a transparent desire to encourage you to give yourself and God time to address these matters more fully as your journey in Christ progresses.

    • WakaWaka123 says:

      @HigherQuest

      "but I do enjoy the nakedness and sexuality of those who willingly share it with others, and I think that it would be just fine for there being some context in which these things can be shared safely. "
      Lets bet practical. How in reality would this be done without it being abused?

  10. OldManJam says:

    Personally I feel that if something is not interfering with with loving the Lord and loving people it should be left entirely up to a persons individual belief whether or not it is immoral. Not one of us make it out of this world alive, and we each sin everyday. To say something like this is worse than another sin is wrong, and to say that indulging in viewing or reading erotic material in my opinion is the same as indulging in a piece of pie or other food. It may not be that healthy for you but it tastes good, but if you allow it, you may begin to slide into gluttony if self control and the spirit's conviction is not observed.

    To each their own. I am not here to judge, and I know for certain that the Lord's hand is not too short to save.

  11. drhotwife says:

    Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. Jer. 8:12

    Is this really where we are in our culture…where people who claim to be Christians are debating whether it is ok to film themselves having sex and then share it with other Christians.

    The reason Jesus talked figuratively about ripping our eyes out rather than letting them give into lust is because He fully recognizes how dangerous this sin is. Watching other people have sex leads to lust…and lust will devastate at the very level of our soul…not to mention the destruction in marriages.

    [Edited for tone] And please do not […] say that pornography does not need [to lead?] to lust. Of course when a man who is visually stimulated, which is the vast majority of men, watches pornography it is going to cause lust. That is how God made us. Let our wives visually stimulate us, not someone else's wife.

    My answer to those who think they need lust from pornography to spice up their marriage is to quickly seek out Christian counseling because you are in very dangerous territory both for your marriage and your soul. This may not be what you want to hear but this is speaking the truth in love…Ephesians 4:15

    • HigherQuest says:

      Drhotwife, are you certain what you are speaking is "truth"? Was Jesus warning against the kind of lust (epithumeo – to desire, to lust, to be turned on, to covet) that represents being turned on or to covet (covet= a desire with the intention of obtaining the object of the desire)?

      If He was speaking about being turned on then who could claim innocence?

      If He was talking about true coveting then I have never heard any of the folks who enjoy the gentler forms of visual eroticism here on MH express their involvement in Matthew 5:27 and 28 type lust.

      I would encourage you to do a bit more research on the coveting Jesus was referring to, because I assure you… I have no intention of ever committing the adultery He references.

      If you are able to study the Word apart from the lenses Church history has given you it might truly surprise you…

    • drhotwife says:

      Higher Quest

      Jesus said do not lust after another woman in your heart as that is adultery with her. Adultery means having sex with someone that is not your wife. Jesus could not be any clearer…this is not about coveting it is about sex. I again find it astonishing that on a Christian web site the debate is being had that we are deciding if it is ok for a husband and wife to send videos of themselves having sex to other Christians.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      Debate, yes. Discuss, yes. But deciding how to apply the words of Jesus and the truth of the Bible is not something we can do for each other. I'd find it astonishing if we thought we could or should—as if we have it all figured out.

      Jesus said for a man to look at a (married) woman, lusting after or desiring her—which I understand to mean desiring to sexually possess her, which was only the prerogative of her husband, not necessarily to steal her away to be his own wife—was to commit adultery in his heart. His intent was to have her sexually, so whether he had acted on that desire yet or not, his heart was set on it. That is the definition of coveting: to desire to take what cannot rightfully be one's own. So in every way, this statement of Jesus' *is* about coveting. Lust, as I understand it, is a simple desire to have. It is the married state of that woman (or in most modern legal systems, of the man looking) that makes the lust sinful. Otherwise, that desire could rightfully have led to marriage, which is not a covetous relationship.

      Now, it is for each person and couple to decide whether they desire to have what cannot or should not be their own if they look at another woman or at a couple having sex. Does the very invitation to look give the looker a "right" to that pleasure? I can't say. I certainly believe that we should *never* act outside the conviction of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, nor quench His prompting in our consciences, nor grieve Him as He seeks to lead us into all truth. I also don't think we should condemn another for questioning whether what he has been taught or told truly conforms to what the Bible teaches.

    • HeSaid-SheSaid says:

      I have found that the Christian church has equated 'lust' with looking, or 'to look' is 'to lust'. But we must define what 'lust' actually means. I think CHL said it fairly correctly. I can look over my fence and see my neighbors new fancy lawnmower and say, "wow, what a good looking mower, wish I had one like that", and no one would accuse me of lusting. I could even go to the store and buy the exact same mower for myself, and still no one would accuse me of lusting/coveting. But if I start making plans to take my neighbors mower for myself, I cross over into the territory of lust/coveting. Yes, I believe 'lust' is a form of possession.

      And to say that I am lusting after my wife is redundant, as I already posses her, and she posses me. How can I covet that which I already have???

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      I think that maybe one logical reason we have drawn the line so far back from the edge, so to speak, is where the analogy leads after that.

      You might be accused of lusting if your mind turned to borrowing your neighbor's mower without his permission, a temporary unlawful possession. But would you if he noticed your admiration or appreciated your praise of his mower and offered to let you take it for a spin in your own yard? What if he offered to let you use it any time you liked as long as you took good care of it and brought it back full? See where that line of reasoning could lead?

      There is an obvious difference, though. Among the Hebrews and their neighbors, a wife wasn't something you shared, at least not to our historical knowledge. But an ox or donkey, as the other examples of coveting given in the Ten Commandments, could be. Would one who asked to borrow your ass be coveting? Would someone who accepted your offer to share it? I think not.

      But it's a big jump from a mower to a wife, with all the complications of human interactions and emotions, and most Christians wouldn't want to go there, except perhaps in fantasy with their spouse. I definitely recommend keeping it in that realm, if the thought may be entertained at all; for some, it is too slippery a slope even to contemplate. There is no question that to do otherwise would cross the boundaries of monogamy!

      Still, the analogy does hold up pretty well for the erotica issue. Your neighbor might like talking about how nice his mower is, and you could be excited for him that he gets to cut grass with such a fine machine. He may show you pics of it in the garage or home video of him using its unique features, and you could marvel over them. You'd probably comment on how blessed he must feel to be its owner! You might even imagine what it would be like if your model had some of those same abilities. None of that would wrong your neighbor (nor your mower, imo.) But if you start wishing what's his was yours, that's where your heart has turned against him (and it.) Again, all my humble opinion and how I implement it in my life.

    • PatientPassion says:

      Well said, CHL. I think that was a really good summary of the issue, and a good explanation of where the line is between right and wrong. As you explain in the last paragraph, I'm totally with you that this seems to be much more of a heart and attitude issue (admiration vs. coveting) than a practical action issue. That's my tentative stance when it comes to erotica, and even videos.

      My one critique is that you be careful about how you explain someone asking to "borrow your ass." I don't know if that was an intentional pun, but in this context that can make a real difference, especially when you're saying that it's okay to ask and grant that! Haha! 🙂

    • HigherQuest says:

      drhotwife

      If you compare Matthew 5:27&28 with Romans7:7 you will see the correct connection of Jesus' words to the concept of "coveting":

      Matthew 5:27  “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28  But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent (Grk. epithumia) has already committed adultery with her in his heart." 

      Romans 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust (Grk. epithumia), except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet (Grk. epithumia). 

      Paul is referring to Exodus 20:17

      Exodus 20:17  “You shall not covet (Heb. chamad or Grk Septuagint epithumia) your neighbor's house; you shall not covet (Heb. chamad or Grk Septuagint epithumia) your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.” 

      Virtually all true scholars agree that the meaning of Chamad or Epithumia, in the context of Exodus 20:17, or Epithumia in Matthew 5:27,28 and Romans 7:7 all refer to one singular concept "Desiring something with the intent of obtaining it." They also agree that lust/coveting is a concept much stronger and more dangerous than being sexually turned on by or enjoying the sexual beauty of another.

      God, very clearly in Scripture draws a clear and unmistakable line between seeing someone sexually desirable, and turning that appreciation for their sexual beauty into something in which a determination to obtain or wrongfully engage with them in sexual intercourse is the goal.

      Because God made all human beings deeply sexual in their human nature, He obviously understands the difference between being turned on by someone and determining to obtain the object of that "turn on". One is normal and the other is sinful.

      MH is absolutely committed to appreciating that which is a turn on visually (as long as it isn't pornographic) and that which is a turn on in written eroticism. I personally, as do many others here, take it one additional step, and that is the step of enjoying seeing others naked or them engaging in sex yet staying far away from becoming involved in sexual touch beyond our own spouses. I see nothing in Scripture that forbids being turned on by another person. I see countless examples of the sin of those who take it the next step and engage sexually with those who turn them on.

      Epithumia is used in the New Testament with various meanings, some positive, some neutral, and some very negative. Context is the key. I can desire (epithumia) to see a beautiful sunset and that is fine. I can desire (epithumia) to see a beautiful naked man or woman and that is fine. (David's sin was not seeing and being turned on by Bathsheba. His sin is clearly and singularly defined as seeing with the intent to obtain her.) So one can desire (epithumia) another person and add in the component of determining to sexually engage with them and suddenly the good or neutral use of epithumia becomes horrifically sinful. It all depends on what a person does with their desires. Jesus in only referring to this third kind of epithumia in Matthew 5.

      So drhotwife, I respect your position and would never desire to encourage you in any way to violate your conscience or your biblical interpretation of sexual liberty, but I do encourage you to carefully study out the theme of biblical sexuality beyond what you've heard in the pulpit and perhaps those on the net who are impassioned to kill all things erotic for Christians. Eroticism is a HUGE blessing from God, in my opinion and Solomon's opinion, and when I look up at Him prayerfully over these matters my spirit senses complete agreement with Him in the areas where I have found liberty. If you experience the exact opposite then I support your walking faithfully in what you see in Jesus.

      I hope this helps explain a little better where I'm coming from…

      Blessings my friend…

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      "So one can desire (epithumia) another person and add in the component of determining to sexually engage with them and suddenly the good or neutral use of epithumia becomes horrifically sinful."

      Unless, of course, that person can rightfully become one's own (in our culture, only through marriage) and that is the path chosen to sexually engage with him or her. That's *not* a negative form of desire.

    • AlwaysReady says:

      Well said as usual CHL.. And HigherQuest.. to you too.

      The only danger is.. "to have as their own". As CHL pointed out, what if the neighbor says, "Feel free to use it whenever," or, "You can use it whenever you want, as long as I'm around to watch over and make sure you take good care of my mower." As prevalent as wife sharing and the fantasy of wife swapping is, that's a slippery slope. THAT being said, I tend to agree with the sentiments you pose.

    • SecondMarge says:

      I think the Slippery Slope argument is a fallacy. There is all kinds of nudity in Europe, on TV, on beaches, nudist camps and people aren’t slipping any more than in the US in fact they slip less.

      I borrowed the neighbors lawn mower. The blades were dull and it was out of gas.

      I do think there is merit to the concept that we see different meanings in some versus of the Bible because some of us have stronger relationships with our spouse and God and having sex in front of others would not tempt us to cheat, swap or take their lawn mower. But for others who have weaker faith watching another couple would put them into an uncomfortable craze. Well maybe not that drastic.

      We have watched and enjoyed others being sexual. My husband enjoyed them watching us. In the end it was no different than seeing a movie. My husband didn’t end up with Nicole Kidman, and I had to borrow the neighbors lawn mower.

      Just like eating oysters, it’s not for everyone.

    • HigherQuest says:

      CHL…

      Yes, absolutely. Epithumia simply communicates "desire". If that desire is a desire to obtain, take, steal, or use in a way that is inconsistent with God's best for us then that "desire" is actually "covetousness," but if the desire is nothing more than being turned on by someone who is sexually a "turn on" then there is no wrong in that. It amounts to respecting proper divine and human boundaries and living happily within those bounds.

      AlwaysReady…

      Oops I think you misunderstood my Ferrari metaphor…that's undoubtedly my fault. I will attempt to clarify that. My use of the Ferrari metaphor was not meant to imply that having sex with my neighbor's wife would be just fine if he permitted it. That might be fun, but it would not be right. What I meant was that just as coveting my neighbor's Ferrari would be wrong, so also coveting my neighbor's wife would be wrong. If I took my neighbor's Ferrari for a ride without his permission that would be wrong. If I took my neighbor's wife for a sexual ride, whether he gave permission or not, would be very wrong…just as wrong as stealing his Ferrari or taking it for a ride without his permission would be very wrong.

      So, no…I don't see any context in which taking my neighbor's wife for a sexual ride would be acceptable to God and thus it would be sin and destructive in many ways. Thanks for helping me see my need to clarify that metaphor…

      SecondMarge

      All I can say to you is that you are just plain wonderful!!!

      Your stories, analogies, comments, and insights are simply off the chart stellar good. Thanks for being you and expressing yourself so frequently here.

      I do very much agree with you about Europeans and beyond Europeans to the general principle that wherever you place unbiblical and legalistic approaches to human sexuality on unsuspecting believers you actually do more harm than good. While I don't have a problem with some forms of erotic video media I think that many who consider themselves "addicted" to it are so or think they are so, not because viewing it is necessarily sinful or addicting, but because they think it is and do it any way and this results in them being obsessed or craving it. Legalism almost always produces the very thing it pretends to deliver from. If the Church could just resolve its Epithumia issues sooo much confusion, depression, bondage, and shame could be lifted and God's design for sex could come into its rightful place in our lives. It has taken me many years to come to this, but I'm sooo glad I have. I pray my brothers and sisters in the US will arrive at some of the same places as other brothers and sisters have around the world. Nudity can be sweet, pleasant, and far from adultery inducing if we view it properly. For those who can't…well, perhaps they should avoid European beaches until they can…hey hey…

    • SecondMarge says:

      Higherquest you are too kind. My honesty usually gets me in more trouble than if I hid behind what people want to hear. I think hypocrisy is a far greater danger than addiction.

      As far as addiction? There are as many people that say they are addicted to sex as those that claim an erotica addiction. So maybe we just all need to stop having sex.

      Thank you for the kind words.

  12. Bill Anthony says:

    So it seems the consensus is: it is okay to express our exhibitionistic desires by intentionally having sex in semi-public places where we might be seen by others. (This could obviously lead to very embarrassing legal issues if we get caught by “authorities.”) But it is wrong to enjoy our exhibitionistic natures by safely and legally sharing photos or videos of ourselves, while maintaining our anonymity, on a website with others who would enjoy “watching” us?

    What are some of your thoughts on this discussion, MarriageHeat?

    • Penny4URthoughts says:

      I think it's just the opposite. Having sex where others that want to watch will see you is both moral and [depending on where you live?] legal. Having sex where some who may object to seeing you, or might be witnessed by children is both illegal and immoral.

  13. LadyGarden says:

    Great insight and participation everyone; this is certainly an explosive topic for discussion and possible implementation.

    Admittedly, we are an eccentric and non-conventional couple; our sexual interests and practices certainly are not the norm. K and I are not promoting our personal tastes, nor are we judging those who disagree. It's just that our views are probably not shared by the majority of fellow Believers, lol.

    To each her own.

    If a practice or an act causes someone to stumble–stay away from it. If it is going to threaten your marriage or relationship with God, stay away from it.

    If however, a practice or an act does not cause these after effects, then perhaps "No Harm, No Foul."

    We love and admire the beauty and erotica of marital love and sex. We would love to watch videos of married Christian couples making love; or listen to their audios. Tragically, it is nearly impossible to find such outlets online. Of course this should all be done with good taste and romance, no obscenity or porn, no violence. And anonymity is probably a good idea.

    Yes, we've been blessed to observe Christian couples making love; its an incredible experience witnessing two people committed to other expressing their love to each other in such an intimate manner. As has already been stated here, in the "olden days" in cramped quarters, couples made love with others around, including family members. It couldn't be helped.

    My sister and I are intimately close–not incestuous–yet very close. We spend time together in the nude; we've watched each other masturbate. We hug and kiss (not making out.) We love each other and express it. She has recorded K and I making love.

    After all, as already stated, by submitting and reading each other's stories here on MH, aren't we all exhibitionists and voyeurs?

    So yes, count us in for a platform that publishes videos/thumbs/audios of Christian married couples making love together. It can be a beautiful experience.

    LadyGarden

    • Beachlover Guy says:

      My wife and I share your enjoyment of watching and being watched by other like-minded couples and some singles. So far, it's just been on webcam, but it's fun and intimate whenever we can share our sexuality visually. Both of us have discovered the joy of being watched while masturbating, as well as watching others, and we hope to do so in-person someday if the opportunity presents itself. I'll add that I found it a huge erotic thrill to be watched while I gave a nude photo of my beautiful wife a cum "tribute." I'm pleased to read that you and your husband also found that shared nudity doesn't have to lead to adultery, even while masturbating or being watched making love.

    • OldManJam says:

      I would be open to such a platform also, my wife might be a tougher nut to crack on the subject though. Her traditional upbringing has put a damper on the more exciting/risque side of sex, but she is opening up.

    • WakaWaka123 says:

      What would even be another platform to talk about this type of stuff on? much less explicitly talk about it or share? The only sites I know of are this one and the Songs of the Believer (mighty networks) site? neither site is open to visual or video erotica or discussion so it seems like an idea that while great, that is dead in the water.

    • sterlingcooper says:

      "Admittedly, we are an eccentric and non-conventional couple"

      Ladygarden, maybe you and your awesome hubby aren't "the norm" in terms of being so communicative and exploratory, but some of us out here reading, and "in waiting" are too, and your stories give us hope that maybe even us "eccentrics" can find a Christian marriage and partner full of committed romance, an open mind and compassion for discussing even the fantasies and turn ons we may choose not to pursue further because of our faith.

      I so appreciate your honesty, openness and beautifully expressed marital adventures. It's not only arousing, but a comfort to those of us who may feel "eccentric" ourselves.

    • Liverr says:

      @Ladygarden: thank you – your lifestyle, close family ties and openness are to be admired. If there was a place to find what you (and we) want – we would see you there. Although we have never witnessed, first hand, another couple making love (and you have) we would champion the opportunity if done in a loving, tasteful (no painful moves) and naturally beautiful way.

  14. Tulsa says:

    We think sharing vids or pics is possible, but only in rare circumstance. Common sense would eliminate us sharing anything like that on a website, Christian or otherwise. No telling where stuff like that would end up, no?
    We think an anonymous forum is a better way to share ideas, and answer questions, rather than show & tell. 😉 It would put a big damper on bad thoughts and temptation. Tips & tricks, and just ideas for many, would be a blessing. Especially those in a rut, so to speak. We have been there.
    The Marriage Bed is somewhat like that, but detail is frowned upon and pretty much not allowed, and sometimes, it's the details that are most important!

    • SecondMarge says:

      I like the format at marriage bed. Being able to add topics and comments without moderator approval. And being able to PM others. However they are so conservative they think MH is pure porn. They think the pictures here are porn and the stories even worse…

  15. luv_the_outdoors says:

    Great discussion all. So not sure about videos because of security issues. However, my wife and I would love to go to a nudist resort like Cedar Waters Village in Nottingham, NH. It is a nudist resort that is run on Christian principles. We think it would be fun to have a group of like-minded Christians in which what happens in the cabins stays in the cabins. Or some outdoor fun on one of their private trails. We are thinking of planning a trip there next summer.

    [MH approved this comment on the presumption that "what goes on in the cabins" would be monogamous in nature.]

  16. HigherQuest says:

    @WakaWaka123

    I hear your desire, your concerns, and your frustration… I don't think the answer to your question is an easy one for sure.

    The Church is in the midst of sexual transition, with most watching porn but not telling anyone they do because of fear of rejection, etc. The transition will continue and I'm personally convinced Jesus is leading it because He's the One Who formed sexuality within humans. He knows better than anyone what is good and what is bad about it, and in Scripture He drew very clear lines around committed marriage relationships. While I truly respect the position of this website that monogamous marriages are the only divinely recognized marriages, many, including myself, are very open to the idea of polygamous marriages as well. I'm not favorable to open marriages, but I do believe that polygamous marriages that are based on a commitment to each member of the poly group for a lifetime is just fine with the Lord, so long as the commitment is real and not just a desire for an orgy. My wife and I have discussed it and do not feel called to it, but we would respect those who do. It would take an amazing amount of grace, patience, trust, and emotional control to pull it off.

    So, if a monogamous couple knew their ability to watch another monogamous couple enjoy sex together, without joining in with them and sharing spouses, while others here see it as terribly wrong, I believe the line the Lord clearly established is actual sexual engaging, not sexual viewing. Everyone on this planet views sexual things, is turned on by them, and no one is capable of assuring God they won't be, nor should they. But, every believer, indwelled by the Spirit, is capable of avoiding coveting and seeking to connect with those who turn them on. This is just one of the many blessings of the indwelling presence of Jesus. He keeps us from fornicating and committing adultery when we walk in His Spirit. But NO ONE, walking in the Spirit, can honestly tell you that they aren't turned on by the sexuality of another person at times.

    So, how it would be possible to view our friends having sex with one another and do so without joining in with them or ruining reputations, etc., is not an easy question to answer, at least not as I've been able to imagine. It seems far easier to destroy one's life by trying it than trying it and finding it worked just fine.

    To make a video of it, to share with others, one approach might be the wearing of a party mask that completely hid the faces of the ones involved…not because they are ashamed of what they are doing, but because of the potential of detection and others overreacting to seeing people they know and doing damaging things with that knowledge. @luv_the_outdoors threw out the idea of couples agreeing to visiting a nudist resort and privately spending time in one of their rooms in the resort for sharing their enjoyment of sex with those they trust, without sharing their spouse for sex with another couple. I suppose this might work. Sounds feasible… If you were as certain as possible of their capacity to control their sexual desires.

    I guess I'd recommend couples who wish to give this a try to book a vacation with another trusted couple for some Caribbean resort where clothes are optional, and ask their wives if initially they would be comfortable walking on the beach together topless. If, having done so they were able to keep their hands off of the other couple then perhaps they could return to their resort rooms and see where things progress to. Baby steps first…

    This is something I believe my wife and I could envision doing, but to move directly to sharing our sex lives visually with someone would be too big of a step as a first step. Risky? Yes. Too risky??? Perhaps… I'm not currently ready for it, and neither would my wife be, but maybe some time down the road…

    • HigherQuest says:

      Just a little follow-up on one of my paragraphs above…

      When I expressed my belief that "every believer, indwelled by the Spirit, is capable of avoiding coveting and seeking to connect with those who turn them on. This is just one of the many blessings of the indwelling presence of Jesus. He keeps us from fornicating and committing adultery when we walk in His Spirit." I did not at all mean that all of us can be assured that if we have sex with our spouse right next to another couple having sex together that we can be certain we won't find ourselves reaching out to touch them and then engaging in sex with them because it is certainly possible that any of us could find ourselves overwhelmed by such proximity. What I meant by what I said is that if we walk in the Spirit, He will guide us in what we can and can't avoid, as far as sin.

      In some cases, He will tell one believer "Don't have sex with your spouse in the presence of another couple…it will not end well…" and for another believer, He may well say "Having sex with another couple present will not overwhelm your resistance to engaging in sex with them…you will be just fine." Each believer must come to know their capacities for things. This is true of alcohol, gambling, visiting a bar, the Internet, beach resorts, etc. Everyone has their degree of capacity for edgy lifestyle choices.

      Where I believe the Spirit factors into all this is that He knows our capacities at any given moment in our walk with Him. If we walk closely to Him, He will say to one "You can do this without sinning," to another, He may say "You cannot do this without sinning." Each of us must learn to hear His inner voice and heed it.

      When couples here tell us that they get together with friends, have sex with their spouse in the presence of their friends, and no one touches anyone but their spouse, I believe them. Some folks are just that self-controlled, and for any of us to tell them they are lying or foolish is to speak out of our own weaknesses and inabilities. Each must know their own capacities.

      What the Spirit will not let any born again believer do is sin and be comfortable with it. He will allow them to sin, but as the apostle John tells us "1John 3:4  Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness." and then he says "1John 3:6  No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." Any of us can mess up and sin, but none of us can claim to be true believers if we can practice what we know to be sin and be fine with it. The Spirit simply will not let a person "be fine with it…"

      So, some here will undoubtedly make the mistake of trying what is being discussed here and experience their inability to keep their hands off their friends, and it will be a terrible moment, potentially very hurtful, and certainly very defiling, BUT they will not be able to continue making such a mistake if they are truly born again because God will work with them from within to distance themselves from a temptation they simply can't handle.

      All of this agrees with Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10:13. Each one must know themselves well enough to know their capacities.

      So, is it worth the risk to try what is being discussed here? Perhaps for most…no. Others like to live on the edge. They are the vertical rock wall climbers among us; the adrenaline rush is huge when they reach the top. But far too many of us would find ourselves crushed at the base of the rock wall having tried something that was just too far beyond our capacities. Living on the safe side of life is admittedly not as much fun, but being broken to pieces is not much fun either.

    • Mercury7 says:

      Higher Quest, thank you so much for your comments on this site! You have given us good challenges to think about the freedom we have in Christ and within committed relationships.

  17. SecondMarge says:

    Wow last I was here I thought this thread had stopped. Not only has it continued but taken a decided turn toward being more accepting. I try to restrict sharing experiences that offend others here. But I applaud LadyGarden and Beachlover for opening up to us. For being vulnerable and truthful. We have had some of the same experiences they shared and it was very enjoyable and certainly not sinful in any way I read the scriptures. Having seen nudity and shared masturbation with friends and family members in the most innocent way as LadyGarden described it is a very positive experience. Not to say I was not nervous. Never pictured myself as an exhibitionist; but while being more of a voyeur, I do get some pleasure from being seen. Seeing another couple masturbate or have sex is a great turn on. Having them see me and my husband was freeing. There is not a doubt in my mind that the Lord is fine with these acts. My path from everything sex is bad and wrong to where my eyes have been opened has been a complicated one. The path of the church and society is certainly headed to more acceptance. If you look where it started to where we are now you can easily project the heading. Same for MH. 6 months ago when I attempted to open these topics I was told no not on MH. Now it’s the most discussed topic ever. When it comes to sex, most people feel pressured to be hypocrites. Do they all enjoy watching others sexually? Of course. Is it coveting? Of course not. Thanks to all that have been open and willing to admit how they feel.

    • IndyDad says:

      secondMarge, you are so right that most people dont talk about seeing others doing sexual things, let along admit it is a turn on for them. When vacationing this past summer and staying with my sister and her husband, one night on my way to the bathroom I looked in their room and saw my sis giving her hubby oral sex. I had a strange mixture of feelings, but being turned on was one of them.

    • Liverr says:

      Second, thanks sooo much. Your past watching and being watched ( making love and shared masterbation) is beautiful if done in a loving, natural (nonharmful, non bdsm) way with mutual consent and enjoyment – providing no sharing of spouses….. thus thank you

  18. Penny4URthoughts says:

    There are many people I would enjoy watching have sex but have zero interest in having sex with them. I don’t know how this idea that watching someone nude or having sex makes the voyeur sex crazed unable to restrain themselves.

    It seems that the majority opinion is that it is ok to watch another couple have sex. What if they are in the next bed in the same hotel room? Is this something MH would permit in a story here? Again only watching, not joining. Maybe that would be so hot it would only be in the ignite section.

  19. MarriedtoaHotBabe says:

    I believe sharing homemade videos with other couples is crossing a line. We have shot several videos over the years and have a nice archive (including one shot back in '04 or so with a massive cumshot on my wife's face) but have never shared any of our videos with anyone and never will. To do so would, I believe, cross a line.

    That said, we have talked about sex with other couples.

    • PacMan says:

      You are 100% entitled to your opinion. I believe that “line” is one you created for yourself, not a moral standard… thus this debate. It is interesting how for some there is a major difference between written erotica and visual erotica. Everyone has their own comfort level… I get that. I just think we tend to build a homemade moral code around the things we are comfortable with. It’s far easier to say Activity X is out of bounds than it is to say Activity X is in bounds but we choose to refrain. I don’t know why that is? I do it too… we all do it at times and in many areas of life.

    • SecondMarge says:

      PacMan I think you make excellent points. We can accept some things as acceptable but choose not to do them. In fact we do that almost everyday of our lives. The problem often is when we decide We wouldn’t do something so others that do are sinning.

      I have always thought MH walked a tough tightrope in what is acceptable and certainly many devout Christians would not find all topics here acceptable. So what do we do here? Read or hear stories about others having sex Picturing it in our minds and maybe pleasuring ourselves as we read or listen. We find that a good thing but if we were to watch the exact same actions by the exact same people it would be wrong? Sorry but that doesn’t fly. As you mentioned we accept certain behavior and condemn others based mainly on our life experiences.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      @PacMan: I believe that this is a "moral standard" issue, overwhelming so, and in scriptural context as well. You have to ask yourself how "moral standards" are determined (and in this context, for the Christian), how they are obtained, and how they are held.

      Here's a bit of an outline that can aid in this effort of determining, obtaining, and holding a moral standard:

      Phil 1:10 – so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ

      1 Cor 1:10 – So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God

      1 Cor 1:32 – Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God

      1 Cor 1: 24 – No one should seek their own good, but the good of others

      1 Cor 6:19, 20 – You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

      You are 100% entitled to your opinion (as it relates to this thread topic), but I think there's a difference between a homemade moral comfort level that we create for ourself and a moral standard.

    • SecondMarge says:

      A Better Pastime, once someone has concluded their opinion is correct, they can read into scripture support for it. This concept is easily seen when people argue Nostradamus predicted the future. But not one verse you quoted, in my opinion, supports your view of a superior moral position that God has told us to follow. Not one of them contradicts the points PacMan made unless you want it to. If you look at them with an open mind, they do no such thing. Faith is an individual set of conclusions that has divided people over the centuries into many different Christian religions.

      In my view, God wanted us to reproduce and make a healthy safe environment for children to thrive. Anything we do sexually that does not prevent those is fine. Nothing in the scriptures including your quotes disagrees with that.

    • PacMan says:

      Hello @ABetterPasttime. I truly appreciate that you’ve put a lot of thought into this. I definitely agree with @SecondMarge that there is temptation to read context into scripture when using to create a position on something. I don’t see how these verses apply. Or…. maybe more serious…. if they DO apply…. then it is clear that this website is morally unacceptable. I don’t think anyone can make a moral argument (thru scripture) that sharing sex in the “public square” thru video is a sin, yet sharing sex thru graphically written prose is acceptable. Or… that seeing is a sin but reading is not. This is what I meant by this simply cannot be line of morality on this without *inferring* I to scripture. One thing you said that you like is that it’s important for Believers to ask themselves where they believe their moral code is coming from. In this case, it seems like it’s just what individuals think is acceptable to them. And we always (hmmmm) find ourselves on the good side of that moral line. It’s an interesting thing to examine…. where and why we draw “the line.” [BTW, there were people ON THIS SITE who quoted scripture to draw a moral line against anal sex. And as the idea of that idea becomes more “normal” (even if they don’t engage in AS), the line of morality moves. Isn’t that fascinating? Our lines are always moving, so that we find our opinions on the side of good.]

    • A Better Pastime says:

      @SecondMarge

      So are you saying that when Christians share erotic home sex videos with other Christian couples, it helps children thrive?

    • SecondMarge says:

      Yes. MH is based on the concept that exchanging information about our sex lives with other couples will make for better sex, happier marriage and happier marriage is better for children. It is illogical to think a video is different in helping than the written word. Except that it maybe more beneficial.

      1 Cor 1:32 – Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God

      I get the feeling we define stumbling differently. Or at least what things are stumbles. You can not read this as supporting your opinion unless you have already concluded you are right.

      1 Cor 1: 24 – No one should seek their own good, but the good of others

      Maybe this is the verse that natives of Alaska use to justify allowing travelers to have their wives for the night. Husband seeking good for the weary traveler instead of himself. Supports that better than your statements.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      Some Alaska Natives (and other groups of Eskimos elsewhere, both Yupik and Inuit) did practice a ritual form of wife swapping as part of their native culture, but not as Christians, so no Bible verse would have been used to support it. Nor was it for the comfort of the traveler but for ritualistic or political/economic advantage through a sort of "co-marriage". Where Christianity came to the culture, the practice was condemned. The Strait Dope website did a great treatment of this topic in an article called "Do Eskimo men lend their wives to strangers?"

      However, I do concur that sharing our MarriageHeat stories seems not that much different than shared audiovisual erotica of hot, loving sex within marriage. I don't mean to imply blanket approval of either, though. While either can be a boon to marriage and celebrate the beauty and freedom we are allowed in the marriage bed, either could also cause a person to stumble. But sharing such stories—whether pictorially or in words—with those who are actively seeking that sort of encouragement is different from prompting one to watch who knows (or believes or fears) that he or she would desire a person depicted or feel dissatisfied with their own partner rather than led to lovingly seek growth in their own relationship.

      As I've said, I believe we can learn from each other in hearing how this or that activity or idea has benefitted or hurt us, but always we must act within the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our conscience. If to you AVE is antithetical to "the good of others," or "causes to stumble," then you should not share it. Of course, a loving heart makes us want to warn people of potential pitfalls that we discern, and I believe this love is behind most warnings against AVE, even if exclusively between a married couple. Some have found it problematic or perceive possible harm, so they warn us to avoid what could cause us to stumble—in this case, to want what could not rightfully be ours. It is the same love that makes a parent set curfews and viewing parameters or causes a good friend to warn us against dating a jerk. It's usually not a desire to control others, just a sincere conviction that something isn't worth the risk.

    • SecondMarge says:

      CrazyHappy I have only one minor disagreement with the second half of your post. There is a difference between suggesting doing something might create a problem. Or sharing a problem they had so that we proceed carefully. Like we warn with alcohol use. But we don’t say you can’t do that because it’s a sin.
      As far as Eskimos sharing their wives. That was more a defense one of them could make than actual practice. Mostly it was to demonstrate the verse was so non specific that it could be used to argue either side of anything. But thanks for the education.
      I have yet to see a good argument here that can justify the stories on MH but reject watching another couple live or on tape.
      Or one that convinces me oral, anal, cuming your wife’s face, rimming, masturbation, pegging, or anyone of most things discussed here in anyway is done to honor God or bring us closer to him. We merely draw an artificial line as to what most of us find are acceptable then move the line occasionally. Then use the excuse the things we did not include do not honor God. We do those and other things we do not reveal here because we enjoy doing them.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      I would just say that honoring God, to me, means obeying Him—His good, perfect and pleasing will for us, which we are instructed to test in order to approve. (Romans 12:2) This includes in the sexual realm, and we should neither add to or take away from what He explicitly approves or disapproves. In scripture, He explicitly approves of sex between a married man and woman and explicitly disapproves of sex outside that bond. As far as I can see, that's it, except to require that everything we do together be done in love for and submission to one another, not selfishly or abusively. As relates to the current topic of sharing homemade AVE, that seems a matter of conscience to me. But the fact that He included (I believe the Cannon was directed by His Spirit) the Song of Solomon in the Bible shows me that He doesn't disapprove the relation of righteous (read: obedient) sexual activity to interested others, in as much as it is a blessing and not a stumbling block to them.

      I am reminded that Jesus advised the plucking out of one's own eye if it caused one to stumble, not the removal of another's if we feared it might cause them to stumble. Advice is good, cautionary tales to our benefit, but I believe we err if we decide for others what they should or should not "test in order to approve" within the clear guidance given for marital sex.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      @PacMan

      I took very little time to pen my initial response; no appreciation needed…it was easy.

      A redirection of focus is not an attempt to understand, but rather an attempt to de-legitimize; I simply wanted to put the focus, and using the assumption that verses from the Bible are generally accepted on this Christian website, back on what God has written to us in his word…as the starting point for the dialogue.

      I think that God's word has you thinking when you stated: "I don’t see how these verses apply. Or…. maybe more serious…. if they DO apply…. then it is clear that this website is morally unacceptable".

      I believe the Bible to be the accurate, inerrant, authoritative word of God. You can easily dialogue as to the hermeneutical application of these verses as they relate to sex, without offense.

      You can see just how far "man's" line on Anal Sex has moved, generally speaking, on this site alone, as you have stated:

      1 Corinthians 3:19 – …the wisdom of this world is folly with God

      P.S. I get just as turned on as the next guy, for lots of things, if not even more than the next guy. I agree with @Foxglove that I would rather understand the "why" of the desire within me in the face of scripture rather than boiling it down to "because it turns me on"…that way I might at least learn something and be that much more articulate.

      Man…is unbearably ignorant: that is his baseline.

  20. Foxglove Girl says:

    When reading through this post I thought about a couple points whenever I'm discerning what is acceptable as a follower of Christ I take into account 2 things. I just wanted to share my own process. The first which was posed by a pastor of mine when I was young was our question shouldn't be "How far can I go and it not be considered sinning?" the question instead should be "How will this choice or action bring me closer to Christ?" which then brings me to 1 Corinthians 10:23 Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up.

    A couple other things I would reflect on is the "why" behind the desire to watch other couples have sex. Do you like the "thrill" because it feels like you're turning someone else on, or because you're watching something that you "shouldn't be"… then unpack those ideas, is this feeding my own ego? Am I coveting another persons sex life? Am I desiring others to covet mine? Do I feel uninspired in my own marriage and why might that be, stress? monotony of life, etc? These aren't judgements from me just important questions I would ask myself about the why behind the desire to watch others or others to watch me rather than simply boiling it down to "it turns me on".

    • SecondMarge says:

      Let me try and understand. A sex act you find is acceptable brings you closer to God. One you don’t like doesn’t.
      If I go to a museum and see a great work of art and enjoy it, I have coveted. If I watch a film I covet the actor or characters life and again I coveted and sinned.
      Not many things in our daily life are done to honor God but when it comes to sex it has to? Any action we accept as bringing us closer to God needs an argument that any good lawyer could make equally as compelling for the acts some say are wrong.
      We have sex because it feels good. We watch or read about it because it turns us on and makes us want to have sex. Nothing wrong about either of those. Most think God made sex feel good. Some think it had something to do with an apple and the devil. If you believe the later, it’s only right to have sex when trying to conceive. Which I doubt anyone here thinks.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      No apologies (i.e. kicking off my sentence by saying "I'm sorry, but…") on this one. Foxglove's response is a perfectly critical response, well thought, and well outlined. BTW, when I use the word "critical" it is being used in the context of "critical thinking" (i.e. the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment), and not "criticizing" (i.e. indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.).

      We, as Christians, are called to be discerning:

      Phil 1:10 – so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ

      As Christians, we are called, in whatever we do, to do it for the glory of God:

      1 Cor 1:10 – So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God

      As Christians, we are called to guard others from stumbling (and I think that this verse speaks well toward the option of not sharing a sex video of ourselves with another couple)

      1 Cor 1:32 – Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God

      As Christians, we are called to seek NOT our own good, but the good of others:

      1 Cor 1: 24 – No one should seek their own good, but the good of others

      Can you sincerely argue that If you expose your "marriage bed" in the public square by sharing a video of you and your spouse having sex (i.e. your marriage bed), that you are keeping your marriage bed undefiled? Can one say that me and my spouse are going to "undefile" our marriage bed by sharing a video of ourselves having sex last night with another couple? Can one say that I am going to share a video of me and spouse having sex with another couple to glorify God? Can one say that in order to grow in Christ, and to become more Christ-like, I am going to share a video of me and my spouse having sex, with another couple?

      1 Cor 6:19, 20 – You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

      Last, the question that @Foxglove asks for herself of "how will this choice or action bring me closer to Christ" is a very critical thought, and great argument in the context of this overall thread.

      P.S. The scriptural context of Matthew 7:1 (Do not judge, or you too will be judged) means this it is not for you (or any person) to judge whether another person has received the salvation of Christ, or not.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      "Can you sincerely argue that If you expose your "marriage bed" in the public square by sharing a video of you and your spouse having sex (i.e. your marriage bed), that you are keeping your marriage bed undefiled? Can one say that me and my spouse are going to "undefile" our marriage bed by sharing a video of ourselves having sex last night with another couple? Can one say that I am going to share a video of me and spouse having sex with another couple to glorify God? Can one say that in order to grow in Christ, and to become more Christ-like, I am going to share a video of me and my spouse having sex, with another couple?"

      If one were to shares photos or videos or stories that celebrate sex as God intended it—within marriage—how does the media used make any difference? It should be for the glorification of God that marital sex is upheld as hot and fulfilling. After all, we are affirming that He made it and (as in all things) His way is the best way.

      It does bring me closer to Christ to realize that he confirmed "the two shall become one flesh" as God joining man and wife, not to be separated by anyone. The relationship with my spouse is meant to exemplify the one between Christ and His Church, and that includes in our sex.

      By "undefile," I understand you to mean keep pure. But one could argue that the marriage bed is in no way defiled by someone else being privy to what goes on there, whether by a story or otherwise. Whether it is loving to share such matters depends on its effect on the recipient. "IF it causes my brother to stumble." Did it defile the marriage bed for the "friend of the bridegroom" to stand at the door and rejoice with the bridegroom when he heard the evidence of the consummation of the marital bonds?

      I believe we do honor God by obeying his express will and that stories of hot sex within marriage show Him to be the gracious and loving Creator that He is. He provided sexual pleasure as a source of bonding between man and wife. Should we idolize sex with our spouse or put our sex lives on display to glorify ourselves? Of course not. But neither should we say that something is not "Christ-like" if Christ didn't do it. If what we do points others to obedience to the All-Knowing, All-Powerful God, aren't we being Christ-like?

  21. SecondMarge says:

    I think it’s interesting where people draw the line. Not judging in any way the differences of opinion. Like the french say viva la difference. I see no issue whatsoever in swapping tapes. Not sure I would do it. Cum in my face crosses my line. Talking about sex with others also is hot and acceptable. So our lines criss cross a few times. I bet if we drew the for every member of MH it might look like spaghetti maps the show when a hurricane is a week away. Most important to me is that the couple is willing and happy with the same line. Or maybe flexible enough to compromise, but never pressuring anyone to do what they do not wish to do.

  22. Annewin says:

    We have made home videos but we do not plan to share them and this discussion has made me think about sexually explicit movies in general. One of our objections to online porn is that we believe the actors should be in a loving marriage relationship and the only way we can be sure of this is to make the videos ourselves.
    We easily come up with a plot line that adds a little glamour and romance to what is essentially an excuse to see a couple engaging in graphically explicit intercourse on the TV screen. My husband is the director and does the camera positions. Lighting and wardrobe are easy; we video in the daytime and are always naked.
    My hormones usually make me very frisky for a few days every month and if this happens to coincide with us being apart for a few days we are likely to both be feeling super horny. It is only at times like this, when our desire for each other is so intense that we start behaving like teens, that we are uninhibited enough to want to make a video.
    Most are filmed in our sunny bedroom but we have explored a variety of settings, and it is a good time to act out our fantasies and maybe try new positions. We find it interesting to see ourselves making love, e.g. I like how my bum looked when we were doing a scene that involved me being astride his face with him lying on his back and licking my pudenda.
    Some of the time we tend to perform for the camera but we are first and foremost making love and often forget we are making a video. The obvious love the horny couple (us) have for each other adds a new dimension to watching a sex video and it is a major turn-on. Although they get better with practice we don’t make a new one very often; part of the excitement is the novelty and the naughty feeling we get videoing close-ups of the action.

    • SecondMarge says:

      I never tried performing sexually on camera. Not certain I would enjoy it. But many people certainly do. The internet is full of real couples recording themselves having sex and women masturbating for the camera. Some more real than others. I prefer watching others or being watched live in person.

  23. A Better Pastime says:

    @SecondMarge

    There is no means by which you are able to site a single statistic, or study, which demonstrates, or CAN demonstrate, that couples (Christian or not) who share a homemade video of them having sex with another couple (Christian or not): helps Children thrive. This is not at all consistent with rules of logical deduction and/or deductive reasoning.

    Example: Just because Henry Ford built the process that lowered the price of automobiles which gave the ability for lower and middle-income Americans to afford the purchase of automobiles does not mean that Henry Ford is responsible for the creation and development of the suburbs and strip malls; nor the countless thousands of deaths caused by the automobile; nor can he repair your car.

    [List of 110 items that "do" contribute to thriving children expunged for length.]

    Just because one wants something to be true, doesn't make it true.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      I'll add just (4) items that have been research study proven to help children thrive:

      Attain, at least, a high school diploma, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children.

      Research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class.

      Here's the fourth point: Research shows that children in female-headed (i.e. single parent) families are four or more times as likely as children from married-couple families to live in poverty.

      Every human, Christian or not, has an awesome responsibility to the truth…but especially the Christian. The Christian is marked by truth. Making a claim that something is true, especially to serve one's own personal means or justification, when the claim is false makes that claim a falsehood at best.

      Hedonism is not a word that I find to be used on MH, but it should be stated that this "line" (as in "drawing the line") as to what is acceptable in the sexual relationship of a married couple is typically a line that exists (and lives) between acts of Hedonism and God's model.

      Stating that the acts of hedonism by underdeveloped, typically non-Christian, groups and societies work as proofs of the Biblical model for sex between a married couple has no basis, and is untrue.

      The research study that I referenced (and you will find links to it all over the internet) at the start of this comment, provides contrasting truth enough to show just how egregious falsehoods, and false claims, truly are as well as to show their lethal potential (see lethal statistics in child poverty) on the livelihood of children.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      "Hedonism- the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence. PHILOSOPHY
      the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life."

      I believe there is a huge difference between the first and second definitions here. Worshiping pleasure is distinct from coming together to bond through shared sexual pleasure. But I think I see your point. If I'm right, you are concerned that those who make or who enjoy sharing erotic videos are seeking pleasure as the "highest good and proper aim" of their lives, rather than keeping God and His pleasure in that rightful place. And the same could be said of any form of erotica, including our stories here.

      The fact that our flesh hungers doesn't mean we have to feed it, yet if we don't feed it healthy food, it starves. Some of us view stories, even pictographically told, of God-honoring sex between married heterosexual couples as a healthy snack—versus the "junkfood" of typical porn and literary erotica, where any once-healthy ingredients have been adulterated or at least hidden by the unwholesome.

      But sex—even sex with our spouses—mustn't become the focus of our lives. If it's all we think about, how can we focus on Christ and His kingdom? How can we "do it all for the glory of God" if we are *only* self or self-and-spouse focused? And it can seem like we are when discussing things on MH because of the specific subject it covers, even when that it the furthest thing from the truth.

      Sex is God-made, God-given pleasure. It's a blessing, not the meaning of life. But it is an important part of marriage and many suffer for lack of understanding of its goodness. That's where I see our stories—and *potentially* shared Christian marriage AVE—having a beneficial impact. (But there are many possible pitfalls as well, including piracy and misuse, where God isn't glorified at all.) This, I belive, is where both Marge and you agree; happily married couples help children thrive. And people (usually wives, it seems) coming to understand that sex, even hot sex, is a good and proper use of our bodies—which belong to each other—can help marriages last. *It's not the most important thing.* But it IS important.

  24. A Better Pastime says:

    @CrazyHappyLoved

    Asking questions, and supplying scripture related to those questions, are the means of thinking critically; they are not accusations or "planks" (emphasis on "planks"). I gave no opinion (emphasis on "no") whatsoever, I leveled no accusations (emphasis on "no") whatsoever; I simply supplied questions alongside scriptural references for the purpose of added discourse.

    God's model (for the unbearably ignorant human), of Biblical sex, is not all (emphasis on "all") found in the Song of Songs and the new testament "lust" verse. There are at least a hundred more scriptural references that apply to sex that I could have supplied but chose to err on the side of brevity.

    And in response to @SecondMarge and her repeated emphasis of "you can use scripture to align with your own opinion" is not discourse, but is rather failed and very poor discourse, as well as simply accusing the one who supplies the scripture as purposely manipulating scripture for their own end. It also is to infer that the scripture referenced is completely null and void due to prior human error, or other human abuses. The abuse, or abusers, of a system does not make a system bad.

    My question to PacMan, and to SecondMarge remains the same: what do you use for determining, obtaining, and holding a moral standard? It's just a question, that's all; nothing to be offended by. Your answer can be anything, even Eskimo tribes that engage in wife-swapping.

  25. Hothubby says:

    This is starting to feel a little too much like a cross-examination. I'm wondering why–especially on this website which is focuses on married sex erotica–we can't just agree that, as SecondMarge has said–we all draw different lines in the sand. The absolute boundaries are drawn by MH: no glorifying non-monogamous sex, no male homosexual anal penetration, etc., and various restrictions on what they view as degrading. That doesn't mean faithful Christians don't engage in some activities that cross those boundaries or that those boundaries are God's boundaries, only that they are MH's boundaries. Fair enough. If you disagree, you can engage in another blog.
    So if it is something that MH permits–and they have some elasticity–why, then, can we not agree that if it feels good, if it builds up our marriages, especially sexually, or, if it builds up singles towards a sexually fulfilling marriage, and if it does not cause a brother or sister to stumble (and simply reading something here cannot be construed as causing someone to stumble because there is choice whether to read a story/post or not), then we can read and write about it? We don't need censure. If you want to raise a question, fine, but firing Bible bullets is not helpful. Never has been. I'm a Christian philosopher by training, steeped in scripture, can argue both the finer points of the critical apparatus of OT and NT manuscripts and back you into a corner in an argument in the blink of an eye. So what? That's never going to persuade you about anything. And I'm not going to be persuaded by such arguments. Let's leave all that alone. Let's have fun. Let's let MH moderate what goes up and leave it at that. They are the gatekeepers and it doesn't make much sense for the rest of us to try to be gatekeepers inside a closed pen.

    • CrazyHappyLoved says:

      To be fair, I don't think A Better Pastime is trying to censure so much as admonish and gently instruct. In the context of the question the OP presented, I think he's asking us whether our reason for doing so (or thinking we can or should) is based on a moral standard that is logically drawn from scripture or, if not, then logically drawn from some other source, like studies. If logic underscores decision-making, then one can argue and perhaps persuade. But very few of our decisions are strictly logical, and our beliefs are more likely to inspire through loving relationship and considerate conversation, I think.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      @HotHubby

      My response was to the original post: i.e. the story, which was published in "Discussion Questions" & "Is it Ok" categories by MH. This post, is a question to an audience (emphasis on "audience"), requesting, what I assume to be Christian/Biblical based responses to the matter posed.

      My response was purely Socratic, and having a philosophy background that should be immediately apparent. There were no Bible bullets, just references to the Socratic Method of questioning proposed: i.e. so as to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.

      My response to this question-post is "disagreement" with nothing. There are other commentators who came with responses that were not favorable, or supportive, of this "mechanism" (sharing erotic videos of themselves having sex with another couple). Should they also move on to another blog site? Should the personal insights of any one individual as to whether "why for", or "why not", be censured because they find their positions in the minority of the thread? Should MH append to the guideline policy structure for the site so as to disallow comments that give reference of scripture from the Bible?

      In my original (2) responses, in this last week, I inquired by asking what the other commentators I was responding to use to determine, obtain, and hold for a moral standard. I would ask the same of you as I assume that MH guidelines and policies are not what you use to determine, obtain, and hold as the baseline moral-standard reference point for living out your life? But, it could be, and I'm not saying that "you are wrong" if that is the case because if that is the answer, then you've answered that question and your position is understood and accepted.

      To CrazyHappyLoved,

      God bless you for your mediation: sincerely! ;-> I believe that there's nothing wrong with conflict; it is profoundly productive and something that I feel should be embraced. I do think that it is sad that the pursuit of truth brings conflict to bear…I guess it stands to reason though.

      The term "love", to me, has become such a platitude and used as more of a catch-all anymore in society; same with the term "happiness". I believe that "Love" has a concrete definition, and that it found in 1 Cor. 13: 4 – 8 –

      "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.8 Love never ends"

      I believe that "Love" is the aggregate of this list of attributes. I believe it to be at once, any one of these attributes, in relation to anything we're doing, at any time, and at all times. Many, today more than ever before, seemingly, think that something is not loving if it conflicts with their desires. Think of the child that says "you don't love me" if you tell them "no" in response to their request to have ice cream for breakfast. The hurt and disappointment that the child feels, given their limited level of development, can grab hold of only one term to express that hurt and disappointment, and in this case "love". They have no idea just how loving the parents action of telling them "no" in response to their request actually is.

      I've used a "negative" to exemplify why I believe that "love", as a term, has become such a platitude in modern society, but I think its a great way of showing just how easy a term it is to use to sum up many moving parts. Its hard to be articulate, and even more difficult to be articulate with our emotions. I know that you know this, as you have expressed in other threads on this site, just how hard it is to be articulate with ourselves. The ability to be articulate in our speech (i.e. understanding and expressing our thoughts), I believe, is a cornerstone to understanding and expressing truth. Just as the child in this example will one day grow up, become a parent, and be able to articulate (for themselves and for their child), just how loving an act was their parents' response to them when they asked to have ice cream for breakfast and their father or mother told them no. They will have full understanding of the "conflict" in the heart of their child.

      In the same way the child in this example can find only one word, "Love", or they could use "Hate", to express their conflict of feelings, I think that society does the same thing in its over use of the application of the term "Love". Its like the over use of the term "Awesome"…everything is awesome in American society today. Mt. St. Helens erupting is more on par with the definition of "Awesome" than is getting a pair of Nike running shoes for half-off.

      If my means for attempting to form a cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions, or providing evidence that supports an argument one way or another, give cause for one to feel conflict is being initiated then that is not, at all, my intent.

    • Sweetpee says:

      I’m with you, hothubby. So, back to the original question! …
      Do you and your wife make/watch/share sexy vids/other couples?

      Hubby and I have for a long time. Only he penetrates me. But, yes, watching and being watched is so hot! Makes our sex even hotter than our usual flaming cums! 🔥

    • Annewin says:

      Making videos is fun. We don’t feel we need to perform for the camera but it is very exciting making and watching them. No one else will see our videos. We would find it very arousing to share with others (I think most of us would) but we choose not to because we feel we would lose something very private and special.
      If we thought others would see the video we were making we would tend to perform for the potential viewers rather than just be making love to each other.

  26. PacMan says:

    To answer your Q (which I was very tempted to ignore) on where I draw my moral foundation (which is somewhat concerning based on how pointed those prompts become. But I am usually an engager in all types of topics.) HERE is where my morality derives: the Bible, the Spirit, Life Experience (research and personal), and Common Sense… in that order. However, we as believers should be very careful how we “rightly use” (or not) the Bible as the authority. Verses can be used to justify a lot. I went to a church that used scripture out of context to speak *against* interracial marriages. We have the luxury of decades to look back and see it as folly. So just because some verses are quoted does not mean you have built that one moral stance on anything solid at all. In the absence of specific guidance from Bible, Spirit, or research… then it comes down to a more basic sociological question (which has a Biblical foundation). In this case, it is answering the Q: “Is sharing erotic videos [or fill-in-the-blank] an activity that is BENEFICIAL to my marriage and to others [if applicable]?” THIS is why the moral lines can shift from marriage to marriage… or even within a marriage over time. THAT answer of “profit/benefit” can change. (I’m really thankful that I have watched SecondMarge stay cool under pressure. She has endured a lot, even on this site. Some of the way you were questioning us – and specifically her – would push a lesser person out of this community. But she is resilient, and it gives me more courage too.)

    • SecondMarge says:

      Thanks, PacMan. It is discouraging at times, especially when MH does not post my replies. Or removes ones I reply to. It does seem to give some people a feeling that they are morally superior if they can attack others and bully them into believing their OPINION is the only way to interpret the Bible. I understand why not everyone agrees with me and I don’t try and convince them they need to live their lives the way I think God wants them to.

      [From MH: Comments and responses to them must remain in line with the purpose and guidelines of our site. As you have said, it's not easy to make those calls.

      Asking why someone draws their lines where they do in light of certain Bible verses is not bullying nor insisting on agreement. It's discussion and within the scope of this type of post. We won't let people be mean, though.]

    • A Better Pastime says:

      @PacMan: That's quite an algorithm to carry around: i.e. for any event there are 4 categories (columns) of filters – (1) Bible, (2) Spirit, (3) Life Experience, (4) Common Sense. How do you weight each category, i.e. Bible 60%, Spirit 20%, Life Experience 10%, Common Sense 10%? Are the weightings dynamic, meaning that they can vary depending on the situation? Would you ever weight Life Experience and Common Sense more than the Bible or the Spirit?

  27. hotleggyamy says:

    I feel like we've gotten off topic. Is there another thread for all this philosophical stuff?? It isn't exactly sexy. Jus' saying'

    [From MH: hotleggyamy, this is a discussion post. If you wish to avoid this type of post, you can click the Stories tab in the main menu to exclude them from results—with the caveat that many older stories may still have tags that put them in both groups, stories and discussions. The homepage shows all posts by date.]

  28. Annewin says:

    For thousands of years our ancestors who lived in warm climates were naked and many copulated unselfconsciously. I believe there are many reasons why this is no longer common.
    We may have always found watching other people’s mating performance interesting. Now we also have social and moral constraints that add the excitement of being naughty to the pleasures we feel when we stimulate our reproductive organs.
    I think we all feel this. The half dozen times we had sex when we were hiking (and were just lucky that no one came along the trail) are memorable because we risked being seen.
    If a Christian couple are having sex and know they are being watched does it alter the nature of the act? If, when a married couple have sex, their focus is completely on giving each other all their love, would an awareness of also giving others pleasure alter this?

    • hotleggyamy says:

      Good questions, Annewin. And I think you know how I/we'd respond. Thank you for posing them.

    • SecondMarge says:

      I think it would affect how you act. It would me. Stopping to adjust the camera? Using a camera person? Maybe I just don’t have acting skills.

    • Annewin says:

      I think that when we make videos it is better if we are not acting; we are just making love and forget the camera.

  29. Waiting Hardly says:

    If a married couple making love is pure and holy (which it is), then how is there harm in watching what is pure and holy? This assumes they are aware of those viewing of course. After 30 years of marriage and with her gone now, it’s all some of us have got.

    • J V C says:

      Waiting Hardly, I am very sympathetic with your situation. It is very similar to mine; we were married over 30 years before she passed away.
      I watch videos too and would like to be in touch to share opinions with you on this.

      [As a reminder, MH does not facilitate the exchange of contact information.]

  30. Waiting Hardly says:

    J V C, what I end up with, as I suspect is the same with you, is a part of life I don’t share with others in the church because they don’t understand. God said in Genesis 2:25 that part of what He declared to be “very good” was the husband and wife naked and unashamed. The first positive command was to be fruitful and multiply. How can obedience be dirty? But I know God understands, and that’s what counts.

    • J V C says:

      Waiting Hardly, I empathize totally with your situation and what you are saying. Our experience of loss seems to be proportional to how much has been lost. I am not sharing with others in my church either; only others who have experienced both loving intimacy and losing can understand.
      I choose to live alone because I have so much to be thankful for. And it is a good thing for our children; they know the love and respect I have for their Mother.
      To get back to the topic here. We did make explicit videos. (Of course, we didn’t know at the time that they would bring back such wonderful memories.) There are times when I watch and relive them and the gratitude I feel for the time we had together enables me to live a better life now.
      There are many things about the Christian understanding of marriage that seem to me to be joyous pointers to an even better place where we will meet our loved ones again.

    • A Better Pastime says:

      The Bible does not say that the husband and wife being naked and unashamed was "very good". The Bible makes a simple statement of fact that they were naked and were not ashamed:

      24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

      I've included verse 24 for context, as verse 25 is simply the telling of the end of the creation story of Eve. God is not declaring anything here as it relates to "good", or "very good". God's declaration of his works of creation as "good" is final in that there are no varying degrees of "good" in terms of God and his works.

      There is no point being made regarding man's initial nakedness other than they were, at that very time, not ashamed of being naked. At this very point, would they have even known what shame is? We know that Adam and Eve were not walking around saying to themselves "look, we're naked and we're not ashamed".

      Moreover, Genesis 2:25 would be the one and only time in the Bible where "naked" is a term that is not referenced in a negative context.

  31. BillAnthony says:

    Wow, I can’t believe these comments are still going on; over one hundred!

    As pointed out in the comments, it’s interesting how some are fine with the voyeuristic/exhibitionistic aspect of reading/writing about their sex lives on here yet feel doing the same with visual media is wrong. As SecondMarge so apply describes, “So what do we do here? Read or hear stories about others having sex, picturing it in our minds and maybe pleasuring ourselves as we read or listen. We find that a good thing but if we were to watch the exact same actions by the exact same people it would be wrong?” And as CrazyHappyLoved stated, “…sharing our MarriageHeat stories seems not that much different than shared audiovisual erotica of hot, loving sex within marriage.”

    As far as offering instruction to help improve a couple’s sex life, SecondMarge again hits the mark: “It is illogical to think a video is different in helping than the written word. Except that it may be more beneficial.”

    And as Sweetpee points out, “watching and being watched is so hot!” So isn’t doing it with other consensual adults better than possibly being “caught” having sex in public by authorities or being seen by minors or other adults who are offended?

    Many couples refrain from watching porn because most porn is obviously made outside of marriage. So a source of “married porn” would solve that issue whether it would be a site where married couples could post anonymously (which I personally would prefer), a place where it could be purchased, or through private exchange between couples. Again, it would be a win/win proposition because it would offer both the exhibitionist and the voyeur a safe outlet.

    • SecondMarge says:

      Well said BillAnthony. Thanks for the kind words. But logic rarely convinces anyone when it comes to religion. Just look at history and how long some churches took to accept science.

    • Annewin says:

      This has been a very interesting topic and some of the points made about instruction would have made an enormous difference to our experience. Before we married we read the usual books but they were not much help.
      If we had been guided by videos made by an experienced couple whose values we shared our first months of married life would have been very different. We had to learn everything by doing and we would have avoided much disappointment and pain if we had received proper instruction. We would have known about things like foreplay, the ways to stretch the hymen and lubrication. We would have avoided all those stains on our new mattress because we would have known about overflow.
      When we had been married a few years we could have made some very instructional videos because we had learned a lot by making every mistake naive virgins can make.
      Our experience would have been so different I can hardly imagine it.

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